On (22 Nov 97) Tim Hutzler wrote to Ian Woofenden...
 IW> I beg to differ. I'm don't like over-selling solar, but I also
 IW> don't like under-selling it. Solar electric systems can
 IW> compete dollar for dollar with the subsidized grid if you are
 IW> 1/4 to 1/2 mile off the grid.
 TH> I suppose that depends on ones lifestyle, doesn't it?
Definitely.
 TH> I live out in the country, close enough to power though. I
 TH> need power for a well, and other uses, and I don't see enough
 TH> solar cells and battery backup to meet the average needs of
 TH> say 15KWH/day as affordable.
I have a household with 8 people in it and last year we generated an
average of 3.077 kWh a day. Take off 15-20% for losses and it's
about a sixth of what you are talking about. 
It just isn't practical to run a conventional hogging American house
on RE. You have to get your load side _very_ efficient before you
even think about it. Unless money isn't an object...
 IW> Solar will NOT economically power the typical energy hogging
 IW> American home though.
 TH> You got that right. But I like refrigerators, and ovens, and
 TH> dishwashers, and clothes washers, and etc... [grin]
We have a big refridge, but I bet it's 6-10 times more efficient
than the one you are using. Ovens have to be gas on RE, unless you
have lots of surplus energy to shoot. We have a clothes washer, and
at present we have several dishwashers - the human type. :) But I am
looking into buying a dishwasher. I can't just go to the appliance
store, though. I have to shop for the _most efficient_ machine out
there. That's the nature of living on RE, unless you have lots of
dough.
 TH> Despite advancements, they are still way too expensive.
 IW> Compared to what?
 TH> Compared to paying for it by the watt/hour.
Yep. If you are on the subsidized grid, RE cannot compete dollar for
dollar. There are other advantages to going with RE though, of
course. Lots of people do it for non-monetary reasons.
And as a famous solar instructor (Johnny Weiss of SEI) says, we
don't ask what the payback on a Mazarati is, do we? :)
 IW> How about compared to the actual cost grid power, including
 TH> cleaning IW>up the ground, air and water after coal-fired or
 TH> nuke plants?
 TH> These costs are unavoidable regardless, since the plants have
 TH> already been built. Most of these costs will be borne by the
 TH> utility user.
Only because most taxpayers are utility users...
 TH> Solar cells don't have that kind of payback ratio. It's not
 TH> even ten years, yet. I'm sure that will happen, though. And I
 TH> look forward to it. Really...
Yep. I hear you. But I'm in the camp that says that we shouldn't
wait for someone else to make it easy for us. I think we need lots
of folks doing it because it's the right thing to do, not just
because of dollars. Then the dollars will become less of a hurdle,
as more people use it and the prices go down. 
But I understand the situation you're in. It's hard to put money out
when the grid is cheaper. If I were in your situation, I'd probably
make the same decision, hard though it would be.
                        Ian
... Solar energy - do the bright thing.                                       
 
... The perceived usefulness of an article is inversely proportional to its
actual usefulness once bought and paid for.
--- PPoint 1.96
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