BO> It's like somewhere deep inside they knew they needed to change,
 BO> but they didn't , like, own it.  So they are constantly moving
 BO> about "helping" others to change.
 HL> Ahhh...yes.  Reading this makes me slightly uncomfortable...wondering
 HL> how many years I did just that.  Standard Alanon stuff, for sure.  I
    Sometimes, I still catch myself doing that.  Trying to warp the
    mirror in front of me so that I can continue to avoid dealing with
    me.
 HL> One of them realized that the things she couldn't stand about this
 HL> other woman were exactly the things about herself that she couldn't
 HL> stand.  It took me a long time to learn that particular lesson.
    It's one that I still learn.  And the next question is; what do I
    do with that information after I have it?  I've got a fairly
    constant reminder of how I -could- be, reflected to me in the
    person and behaviors of the owner here.
    Just knowing that my uncomfortable-ness comes from relating to,
    identifying with, behaviors and attitudes that I call "ugly" in
    myself, that I see in him, takes only a little bit off the edge of
    my discomfort.
    He freely operates under ground rules that I am repulsed by, in my
    self.
    The trick, as I choose to practice it, is to accept the reflection
    and affirm that I choose not to be that way, today.  That helps,
    kinda.
 
 BO> In that case, their constant mission of reforming the world and
 BO> all it's people isn't really personal.  It's just their
 BO> replacement reality altering behavior.  They obviously needed a
 BO> more interactive soap opera to live in.
 HL> 
 HL> I'm not sure about the soap-opera part...unless you mean that we all
 HL> live in dramas of our own making.  I do agree that, for the most 
 HL> part, it's not personal.  I still take it personally, although
 HL> less so than I used to.  Much less.  And life got so much more 
 HL> interesting when I began to focus on my own life ;-)
 
    Yeah, we are all locked into our little bubbles of perception.  We
    all have our own soap operas we're living in.  A soap opera is
    something people do when they can't stand being in their own life.
    They create one that keeps the focus "outside".
 BO> unh hunh.  yup.  I get real twitchy around folks who say or imply
 BO> how much better my life would get if I "would only do this one
 BO> little thing differently...."    Like, yeah, wow.   Show me how
 HL> Yes.  For the longest time I didn't think there was anything wrong
 HL> with either my own behavior in that area, or with other's behavior
 HL> toward me.  I grew up in that kind of environment.  If someone was
 HL> willing to go out of their way to "teach" you how to be different, it
    Nobody taught me directly, but they did blame me daily.  I grew up
    knowing that I made my gods have feelings, and that I was gonna
    have to pay for that power.
 HL> violation it is.  You've just described my sister, btw.  The problem
 HL> is, I'm not, in the least, interested in her opinion of what I'm
 HL> doing....and she never asks permission to state it.  For a long time I
 HL> couldn't figure out why I felt violated whenever I was around her. 
    I understand that dance.  Their condemnation is the only
    connection I have with them.  And any connection is better than
    being alone with myself.
    Until it isn't anymore.
 HL> Then I realized that she was incredibly open with her condemnation of
 HL> what I was doing, and free with her voiced opinion of that.  I wonder
 HL> when I'm going to get the courage to say to her, "I really don't care
 HL> what you think.  I didn't ask you for your opinion on that matter."
    It'll probably be just after you get okay with you life as it is.
    And for me, that state of okay-ness is still not a constant.
    And for the record, you do still care.  You're still listening.
    Her "comfort" is more important than yours.
 
 BO> yeah buddy, that's a common one.  The human drive towards tribe,
 BO> twisted by ignorance.  That's also my definition of spiritual
 BO> abuse; pressuring someone to hide their light.
 HL> Hunh.  I never thought of it as spiritual abuse...specifically.  And
 HL> that's exactly what it is.  I keep coming back to the Ugly Duckling
    yeah, that's what I call it.
 HL> story.  I feel like a swan born into a family of ducks.  I don't
 HL> know how that happened, and I'm trying to figure out how to live with
 HL> the results without compromising my own integrity.  So far I haven't
 HL> figured out how to do that.  I keep thinking that if I get to a place
 HL> where I'm so secure in who I am, it won't make a difference.  I'm not
 HL> there yet.
    I believe it.  When I'm satisfied with my own life-garden, and I
    look into others gardens, I'm not about comparing, I'm about
    looking for ideas on arraingement.
    It comes.  It really does.
    Just because I'm wierd, doesn't mean I'm wrong.
 
 BO> When I'm really okay with me, I'm coincidentally (sp?) highly
 BO> allergic to folks who don't like me the way I am.
 HL> I think that's what has been happening for me, lately.  I'm feeling
 HL> really okay with who I am and I'm finding it unacceptable to be 
 HL> treated as second class.
    How does that relate to your self-objectifing stuff?
 
 BO> Those times where I hang with folks who are pretty much focused on
 BO> how I need to change in order to "be better", and I'm sitting
 BO> there shaking my head, agreeing with them, and feeling like shit,
 BO> I'm in a toxic shame spiral, way past self-abandonment, and tied
 BO> in real deep with the dark side h.p.
 HL> Thanks for bringing back to me the concept of self-abandonment. 
 HL> That's a place I tend to fall into without even realizing it.  I know
    The power of self abandonment, for me, comes from it being how I
    survived my family environment.  And it also gives me a real neat
    way to blame others for my conditions.
 HL> that when I'm there for myself, I'm not afraid of abandonment...and
 HL> when it comes to my FOO, even while I'm thinking of letting them go, my
 HL> fear is that if I do that, they'll abandon me completely.  What puzzles
 HL> me is why  I'm so concerned about people who have *never* been there
 HL> for me  abandoning me.  It doesn't make sense.  But then again, trying
 HL> to  apply logic to an emotional situation makes even less sense ;-)
    I believe it's a developmental state that we are supposed to go
    thru.  But the bummer is, if no bonds were established, then there
    aren't any to be cut.  And if we don't get to cut the bonds, then
    we don't get the rewards of that stage of development.
    How many times have we bonded with borderline toxic individuals
    only to sunder the connection for no obvious reason, after the
    bond was established?
    I believe it's our deeper self trying to get that stage done with.
 
 BO> can stand to be around them, as long as we don't talk about
 BO> anything that has to do with people who aren't there.
 HL> Which is how I think I should be able to deal with my family.  Be
 HL> around them without getting into anything "meaningful" (by that I mean
 HL> anything that has to do with my life).  Then I wonder, "Why bother?" 
 HL> As I said, it's a dilemma, and I haven't gotten through it yet.
    yup.  why be around people that can't handle it?  For me, it's
    because being around flatheads is better than feeling alone.  And
    in reality, it IS being alone.  Paradoxical, no?
 
 HL> I still find myself going "to the hardware store for milk".  And 
 
 
 HL> am repeatedly disappointed to find out they don't have, can't give
 HL> me, what I need.  I *still* want to find it there.  A lack of
 HL> acceptance, perhaps?
 
 BO> oh yeah, totally.  Leastwise, that's how it is for me.  When I'm
 BO> going to the hardware store for milk, it's because I hate my need
 BO> for milk, and I'm looking for people who will agree with me.
 HL> Interesting.  I haven't looked at it that way, but it makes a
 HL> tremendous amount of sense.  If I am truly accepting myself and my
 HL> life, then  why would I be choosing to be around them.  It must be that
 HL> on some  level I'm not, yet, completely comfortable with the choices
 HL> I've made.
    I agree with that.
 HL> Yes.  As I said on the phone, this is a result of the beginning work
 HL> I've done on this go 'round on 6 & 7.  I asked for the stuff that
 HL> was standing in the way of my having meaningful, intimate,
 HL> relationships removed, and I'm smack in the middle of my FOO issues. 
 HL> Not a coincidence!
    Nope.  When yer having problems with speaking english, ya gotta go
    back to who and how you got taught.  Ya gotta go back to the
    "rules".
 
 BO> And, I'm way less interested in how they feel about how and what
 BO> I'm doing.  I'm too busy doing what I'm doing to take time out to
 BO> monitor my progress by watching their reactions.
 HL> Yes.  Most of the time I don't realize that I've just gone out and 
 HL> lived my life.  Until I get a call from one of them saying that it's
 HL> been *months* since they heard from me....and the toxic shame spiral
 HL> starts.
    It's a trip to see how much the life-less ones need us in order to
    keep their drama happening.
 
 BO> I tell ya, I'm glad that I don't have that one going on, today.  I
 BO> can imagine how it could be to have some kind of desire to hang
 BO> out with people I've got nothing in common with, but it stretches
 BO> my imagination to the edges of creduality.
 HL> 
 HL> My logical mind can't believe I'm spending so much time on this one...
 HL> but there's this kid inside of me who wants....
    yup.
 
 HL> Massage Therapist Journal about how, physically, somatic memory
 HL> works.  It's the first time anyone has explored that there *is* 
 HL> quantifiable muscle memory on the cellular level.
    The hologram has to be grounded somewhere.
--- Blue Wave/QBBS v2.12 [NR]
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