On 2/09/2016 10:52 AM, Alan Ianson -> David Drummond wrote:

 AI>>> We are a little beyond logical explanations now, don't you think?

 DD>> To go beyond something you have to have already reached it.

 AI> We have reached it, long ago.

Must be longer ago that the 30 years I've been here. Not one meaningful reason
has been presented in those 30 years.

 AI>>> The questions and answers in this case are not hard and have been
 AI>>> made. You (and a few others) have chosen to ignore them.

 DD>> Not one person has presented a logical case as to why FN_SYSOP and
 DD>> FIDO_SYSOP should be accessible today only by sysops.

 AI> Perhaps it is you who should present a logical case for why a change is
 AI> needed?

No need to - time marches on, things change, tides ebb and flow. Unless you
think you can do better than King Canute you just have to accept that.

Fidonet participation has shrivelled to a fraction of what it once was. To
exclude some people from a chat echo just so the "allowed" participants can
feel special is ludicrous.

 DD>> Some have suggested that it is because it has always been so. Many
 DD>> things have always been so, but as time moves on they are no more.

 AI> Those two echoes have always been sysop echoes where sysops discussed
 AI> whatever was on their minds.

Yes - chatter. No reason to exclude non-listed from that.

 DD>> Some have suggested that it is because "sysop" is in the tag. "United
 DD>> States" is in the name of that country to your south, but I have yet
 DD>> to see an affiliated collection of states any less united. The echo
 DD>> tags are "just a name".

 AI> An echo tag is just an echo tag. It could be anything. Echo tags
 AI> generally do give you a pretty good idea of what is going on in an echo.

The why the description field in e-lists? Some echo tags do not accurately
define what an echo is for - FN_SYSOP does not lead one to immediately know
that this is where Fidonet sysops meet to chat about whatever is on their
minds.

 DD>> Some have suggested that it is because these echoes are for the
 DD>> discussion of "renegade users". Both echoes are international in
 DD>> coverage. No-one has mentioned an international renegade user in the
 DD>> echoes in years - we do not have such in users (users are a rare breed
 DD>> anywhere).

 AI>   We don't have the numbers we once did, users or sysops. Most of the
 AI> users on my BBS today are sysops although I do still get new users
 AI> loging in once in a while.

What percentage of those users are renegade - and what percentage of those
renegades need to be brought to the whole sysop world's  attention that we need
a special place to do it?

 DD>> Not one person has presented a proposition as to what detriment there
 DD>> is to Fidonet having non-sysops access these echoes. Fidonet is about
 DD>> communication - the more participants the more communication.

 AI> I don't see any detriment but then we lose our sysop echo.

You have you net/region/zone echo for sysop business. Chatter is just chatter.

 AI> Why not chat in chat echoes and chat in sysop echoes with other sysops.
 AI> We have both and loseing the sysop echoes serves no purpose and there is
 AI> nothing to gain.

You still have FN_SYSOP and FIDO_SYSOP to chatter in, access has not been
removed from you, you have lost nothing.

We gain potentially a few more opinions/threads by allowing others in.

 DD>> So far no convincing arguments as to why I (and others) should alter
 DD>> the access settings at my (our) node(s).

 AI> I'm not trying to convince you of anything and you are free as we all
 AI> are to set our systems up as we see fit.

You must be the only one in Z1 - everyone else posting from there thinks I
should limit access (by altering settings) according to their definitions.

 AI> Those two echoes are sysop-only echoes where sysops chat between
 AI> themselves. No elitest snobery or secrets about it,

"sysops only" defines exclusivity - elitist snobbery!

 AI> it's just a place for sysops to hang out and chat.

Then why the need to exclude a few non-sysops then?

 AI> There are plenty of places for everyone to chat in the echo of their
choice

FN_SYSOP, and FIDO_SYSOP is where we all are though if they want to chat with
us, that is where we are.

-- 

Regards
David

E&OE

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