==> A hush fell over the room when Billy O said to Harriet Levy <== 
 BO> This is tempered somewhat by my experience of knowing people who
 BO> didn't even try to get to know the people they where associated
 BO> with.  They were/are so blind to themselves.
 BO> It's like somewhere deep inside they knew they needed to change,
 BO> but they didn't , like, own it.  So they are constantly moving
 BO> about "helping" others to change.
Ahhh...yes.  Reading this makes me slightly uncomfortable...wondering
how many years I did just that.  Standard Alanon stuff, for sure.  I
got to see my own growth in that area the other night.  I was having
coffee with 2 women from my alanon group....they were going on and on
about a woman there, who they don't like.  I was fascinated by how
it went from "I don't like her" to thinking of a way to make her so
uncomfortable she would leave the group.  I guess my recovery is 
showing, because I was able to bring up why I thought that was a 
really bad idea.  The thing is, while I *heard* what they were 
saying, and agreed with them, for the most part, nothing this 
woman does really affects me...so why put in the energy to change her
or her behavior?  
One of them realized that the things she couldn't stand about this
other woman were exactly the things about herself that she couldn't
stand.  It took me a long time to learn that particular lesson.
 BO> In that case, their constant mission of reforming the world and
 BO> all it's people isn't really personal.  It's just their
 BO> replacement reality altering behavior.  They obviously needed a
 BO> more interactive soap opera to live in.
 
I'm not sure about the soap-opera part...unless you mean that we all
live in dramas of our own making.  I do agree that, for the most 
part, it's not personal.  I still take it personally, although
less so than I used to.  Much less.  And life got so much more 
interesting when I began to focus on my own life ;-)
 BO> unh hunh.  yup.  I get real twitchy around folks who say or imply
 BO> how much better my life would get if I "would only do this one
 BO> little thing differently...."    Like, yeah, wow.   Show me how
 BO> well it works in your life.
Yes.  For the longest time I didn't think there was anything wrong with
either my own behavior in that area, or with other's behavior toward
me.  I grew up in that kind of environment.  If someone was willing
to go out of their way to "teach" you how to be different, it was an
indication that they cared.  Now I know what a boundary violation it
is.  You've just described my sister, btw.  The problem is, I'm not,
in the least, interested in her opinion of what I'm doing....and she
never asks permission to state it.  For a long time I couldn't figure
out why I felt violated whenever I was around her.  Then I realized
that she was incredibly open with her condemnation of what I was doing,
and free with her voiced opinion of that.  I wonder when I'm going to
get the courage to say to her, "I really don't care what you think.  I
didn't ask you for your opinion on that matter."
 BO> And yeah, there are lots of people on this planet.  I kept looking
 BO> until I found a crew that didn't have the need to reform others
 BO> into better working copies of themselves.  It's easier.
Fortunately I *have* found them.  I have a wide circle in NY who dearly
love me, just the way I am...and of course, there's the extended family
of choice who are all over the country.  I'm meeting many of them as I
travel.  It will be good to finally meet you this summer.
 
 BO> yeah buddy, that's a common one.  The human drive towards tribe,
 BO> twisted by ignorance.  That's also my definition of spiritual
 BO> abuse; pressuring someone to hide their light.
Hunh.  I never thought of it as spiritual abuse...specifically.  And
that's exactly what it is.  I keep coming back to the Ugly Duckling
story.  I feel like a swan born into a family of ducks.  I don't
know how that happened, and I'm trying to figure out how to live with
the results without compromising my own integrity.  So far I haven't
figured out how to do that.  I keep thinking that if I get to a place
where I'm so secure in who I am, it won't make a difference.  I'm not
there yet.
 
 BO> I consider how much time I spend with the blindly driven clone
 BO> seekers to be a measure of how well I'm doing in my abandonment
 BO> terror recovery program.
 BO> When I'm really okay with me, I'm coincidentally (sp?) highly
 BO> allergic to folks who don't like me the way I am.
I think that's what has been happening for me, lately.  I'm feeling
really okay with who I am and I'm finding it unacceptable to be 
treated as second class.
 BO> Those times where I hang with folks who are pretty much focused on
 BO> how I need to change in order to "be better", and I'm sitting
 BO> there shaking my head, agreeing with them, and feeling like shit,
 BO> I'm in a toxic shame spiral, way past self-abandonment, and tied
 BO> in real deep with the dark side h.p.
Thanks for bringing back to me the concept of self-abandonment.  That's
a place I tend to fall into without even realizing it.  I know that when
I'm there for myself, I'm not afraid of abandonment...and when it comes
to my FOO, even while I'm thinking of letting them go, my fear is that
if I do that, they'll abandon me completely.  What puzzles me is why 
I'm so concerned about people who have *never* been there for me 
abandoning me.  It doesn't make sense.  But then again, trying to 
apply logic to an emotional situation makes even less sense ;-)
 BO> 'bout the closet thing I can think of was how hard it was to get a
 BO> divorce from the service nazi crowd.  It was hard.  But after I
 BO> got a life that I liked being in, it got easier.  Nowadays, I
 BO> can stand to be around them, as long as we don't talk about
 BO> anything that has to do with people who aren't there.
Which is how I think I should be able to deal with my family.  Be around
them without getting into anything "meaningful" (by that I mean anything
that has to do with my life).  Then I wonder, "Why bother?"  As I said,
it's a dilemma, and I haven't gotten through it yet.
 HL> I still find myself going "to the hardware store for milk".  And 
 BO> It's a way hard habit to break.  It's tragic and pathetic, for
 BO> sure.  I get the pull to hang out with other clueless types when
 BO> I'm in a toxic shame spiral.  Man, talk about adding rocket fuel
 BO> to a lawn fire.....
Yes.  
 
 HL> am repeatedly disappointed to find out they don't have, can't give
 HL> me, what I need.  I *still* want to find it there.  A lack of
 HL> acceptance, perhaps?
 BO> oh yeah, totally.  Leastwise, that's how it is for me.  When I'm
 BO> going to the hardware store for milk, it's because I hate my need
 BO> for milk, and I'm looking for people who will agree with me.
Interesting.  I haven't looked at it that way, but it makes a tremendous
amount of sense.  If I am truly accepting myself and my life, then 
why would I be choosing to be around them.  It must be that on some 
level I'm not, yet, completely comfortable with the choices I've made.
 BO> I still want, at times, the ferengi fuck who owns this company to
 BO> give me a feeling of being important.  Man, what a set up.
Yes, just like I still want my father to tell me he's proud of me. 
 BO> I know that for several years, even after I "knew" the difference,
 BO> my deeply held definition of relationship was total emeshment.  I
 BO> could say different words, but my behavior reflected the truth of
 BO> my beliefs.  Painfull.
I'm getting better with that.  My current relationship is not about
enmeshment.  It is more 2 people with very full lives trying to 
figure out who to make those lives touch.  It's difficult.  Part of
me wants to "spend every minute with him", and another part of me
is terrified that when he is living here full time, that i'm not 
going to have the freedom that I've enjoyed in the last year and a 
half of living alone.  
 BO> Getting abused for not fitting in and playing "right" really
 BO> sucks.  Six and seven time, for sure.
Yes.  As I said on the phone, this is a result of the beginning work
I've done on this go 'round on 6 & 7.  I asked for the stuff that
was standing in the way of my having meaningful, intimate, relationships
removed, and I'm smack in the middle of my FOO issues.  Not a coincidence!
 BO> I comfort myself with that one.  At least my developmental issues
 BO> are getting closer to my chronological age.
I understand and relate.
 
 HL> I tend to think that, maybe, I shouldn't have anything to do with
 HL> them.  But that doesn't feel like the right answer either.
 BO> The only thing that comes to mind, for me, about that, is that
 BO> when I'm real grounded and centered and appreciative of me, I can
 BO> let others have their own drama alot easier.
 BO> And, I'm way less interested in how they feel about how and what
 BO> I'm doing.  I'm too busy doing what I'm doing to take time out to
 BO> monitor my progress by watching their reactions.
Yes.  Most of the time I don't realize that I've just gone out and 
lived my life.  Until I get a call from one of them saying that it's
been *months* since they heard from me....and the toxic shame spiral
starts.  
 BO> I tell ya, I'm glad that I don't have that one going on, today.  I
 BO> can imagine how it could be to have some kind of desire to hang
 BO> out with people I've got nothing in common with, but it stretches
 BO> my imagination to the edges of creduality.
 
My logical mind can't believe I'm spending so much time on this one...
but there's this kid inside of me who wants....
 HL> More will be revealed, I guess.
 BO> No guessing needed.  As long as yer looking, the view keeps
 BO> changing.
And I'm looking.  And starting to talk about it.  I'm getting a lot
of really helpful feedback from people who are not invested in my 
staying in that drama-loop.  It's helpful to get validation.
 BO> Oh, by the by, I most highly recommend "The Eagles Quest" by Fred
 BO> Alan Wolf to all my friends who are into the healing arts.  And I
 BO> thought of you in specific.  I'm remembering some conversations we
 BO> had a while ago about the Qabala (sp?).   
I'll take a look for it, or order it.  I just finished "Where Healing
Waters Meet" by Clyde W. Ford.  It's about the connection between 
body and mind and treating them both together, but instead of dealing
with psychosomatic issues by treating the mind; treating them by 
treating the body and unlocking the muscle-memory.  Both you and I 
know, from experience, that this works....
Also, I've been reading this really great series of articles in the
Massage Therapist Journal about how, physically, somatic memory
works.  It's the first time anyone has explored that there *is* 
quantifiable muscle memory on the cellular level.  
More later....
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