david, at 10:43 on Jul 22 1995, you wrote to Bill Grimsley...

BG> Sure they are.  How many complaints have you seen about USRs, Octocomms,
BG> Microcoms, Hayes, Supras, Zooms (lately), and even the Dataplex?

db> How many people have those modems? 

BG> Which ones do you mean, the up-market US models or the cheap asian crap?

db> USR, Octocomm, Microcom...

Hard to say, but I'd suggest that corporate and govt users would be far
more likely to buy those, while end-users tend to gravitate towards the
lower (and cheaper) end of the market.  Sysops and BBS-users account for
only a very low proportion of modems being sold, possibly under 5% in
total.

db> How many people would encounter a problem in their modem, or know if the
db> problem was actually in their modem as opposed to elsewhere in "the
db> system"?

BG> I'd reasonably expect...

db> An unfounded assumption; 

More a guess based on possibly flawed logic actually.  :)

db> it'd be nice to believe this, but remember the way the world operates - 
db> people with money get all the good gear, even though they have no idea what 
db> to do with any of it. 

Of course they do!  They spend it, just like you and I would!  Of course,
they likely don't know or understand exactly what they're buying half the
time, but they certainly know what to do with it nonetheless (their money,
that is).

db> Sure, a subset of users with those modems may know what they're doing - but 
db> the same can be said for any device.

At least in corporate sites there is usually a systems analyst or similar,
who should (but not necessarily does) have a reasonable knowledge of the
workings of said company's installed base of hardware.  By the same token
though, the end users in that situation probably have even less
understanding of how their hardware operates than the average enthusiastic
hobbyist.

db> How many people would finally report such problems in a manner in
db> which any of us would see or know of said reports?

BG> As a proportion of total sales?  Probably fewer than 0.5% is my guess...

db> Fewer than 0.5% is hardly a representative sample, is it..

Dunno, gallup polls sample fewer than 0.5% of the population, yet that is
still generally considered to be a fairly representative cross-section.

BG> ...and wouldn't know what fidonet was...

db> They don't have to know anything about Fidonet to be using their modems 
db> properly;  even dial-up UNIX systems require properly configured/operating 
db> modems (standard 8-N-1 configuration, etc.).

Can't comment here, as the last dial-up *NIX system I called (Qld Uni)
actually required 7-E-1, and a few "enters" to connect (at 2400
as well).

BG> However, I'd also suggest that complaining to the manufacturer is
BG> more likely to get a satisfactory response than bitching to a simple
BG> distributor of cheap modems...

db> Sure - but that doesn't address the issue of how you know that nobody is 
db> complaining because they're having no problems with their product. 

True, no argument with that.

db> The question was intended to indicate that they may in fact be complaining 
db> but we just don't know about it.

Agreed, there's just no way of knowing the true number of complaints.

BG> high quality modems have never been so cheap.  Remember the $1999 M7Fs?

db> Yup.  Mine cost me between $800-$900 (upgrade from M5), and then buying 
db> this new M34F outright was cheaper. 

Yep, and the M34F is cheaper than the M11F was just 6 months ago too.

db> It's just the way this industry operates as it heads towards the
"consumer 
db> products" market.  Bill Howard (PC Magazine, May 30, 1995) wrote:
[ ... ]
db> A year ago this was a $5,000 system.  In a year, it might be $1,500 - with 
db> a faster CPU. 

I have a 3 year old Rod Irving catalogue here (dunno why it han't been
tossed like all the other out-of-date stuff), and it lists a 386DX25
motherboard (a real powerhouse, wot?) at $3795 (0Kb RAM of course).  As
horrifying as that price appears, the really amazing thing is that people
were actually buying them for those outrageous prices.  I wonder just how
much of that was due to gouging by Intel on their CPU prices?  I have a
pretty good idea.

db> Don't you wish new car prices followed this curve?"

Different types of industries though.  Electronics are cheap WRT raw
materials, it's mainly the R&D which cost big bucks.  Have you noticed
how the prices of CPUs have plummeted since Intel lost their monopoly?  I
sure have.

BG> Why people bitch about having to pay $650 for a 33k6 Courier is beyond
BG> me, I'm afraid.

db> Ack.

Rod disagrees with you, but I know you won't lose any sleep over that.  :)

BG> The argument is flawed anyway.  After all, Paul's modem IS approved...

db> So's mine (obviously).  Even though (technically) your PC is also supposed 
db> to be Austel-approved, I don't think I'll push too hard for it in my next 
db> purchase (hopefully only a few months away).

Whilst Austel-approval used to be a requirement for using PCs with modems,
I don't think it applies any more.  Might give Austel a ring (toll free, of
course!) and ask them.  :)

(The reason for the smiley should be obvious, BTW)

Regards, Bill
@EOT:

--- Msgedsq/2 3.20 alpha 5