-=> Quoting HARRIET LEVY to BILLY O <=-
 
 BO> That line "someone does care enough to want them to change".  That
 BO> one got me.  Interesting.  I thought the purpose of the 12th step
 BO> was to ensure my own recovery, more than to bring others into it.
 
 BO> I think doing 12th step work with the intention of making someone
 BO> else "change" is probably not the best motive.
 HL> This brought up a whole 'nother line of thought for me.  I've recently
 HL> realized, AGAIN, that if someone wants me to change, it's obvious that
 HL> they don't like me much the way I am.  If I want someone else to
 HL> change, then I don't like *that* person very much either.
    I agree with you there.
    This is tempered somewhat by my experience of knowing people who
    didn't even try to get to know the people they where associated
    with.  They were/are so blind to themselves.
    It's like somewhere deep inside they knew they needed to change,
    but they didn't , like, own it.  So they are constantly moving
    about "helping" others to change.
    In that case, their constant mission of reforming the world and
    all it's people isn't really personal.  It's just their
    replacement reality altering behavior.  They obviously needed a
    more interactive soap opera to live in.
 HL> Instead of trying to make myself into the kind of person the other one
 HL> wants me to be, or, for that matter, trying to make the other person 
 HL> into who I want *them* to be, I'm much better off making choices about
 HL> who I want to spend my time with.
    unh hunh.  yup.  I get real twitchy around folks who say or imply
    how much better my life would get if I "would only do this one
    little thing differently...."    Like, yeah, wow.   Show me how
    well it works in your life.
    And yeah, there are lots of people on this planet.  I kept looking
    until I found a crew that didn't have the need to reform others
    into better working copies of themselves.  It's easier.
 HL> This is coming up real strong for me in terms of my biological family.
 HL> It's become so obvious to me, lately, that they really don't like who
 HL> I am.  What they like is their image of who they think I should be.
    yeah buddy, that's a common one.  The human drive towards tribe,
    twisted by ignorance.  That's also my definition of spiritual
    abuse; pressuring someone to hide their light.
 HL> The problem is that I don't like who they want me to be.  I like who
 HL> I am.  Also, I've found a number of people who *do* like me, just as
 HL> I am....which doesn't mean they don't want me to grow, they do...and
 HL> applaud it when it happens, but they don't want me to be *different*.
    I consider how much time I spend with the blindly driven clone
    seekers to be a measure of how well I'm doing in my abandonment
    terror recovery program.
    When I'm really okay with me, I'm coincidentally (sp?) highly
    allergic to folks who don't like me the way I am.
    Those times where I hang with folks who are pretty much focused on
    how I need to change in order to "be better", and I'm sitting
    there shaking my head, agreeing with them, and feeling like shit,
    I'm in a toxic shame spiral, way past self-abandonment, and tied
    in real deep with the dark side h.p.
    It still happens, after all these years.  But it don't last as
    long.
 HL> So I feel like I'm left with a dilemma.  Do I still have anything at
 HL> all to do with my FOO?  How do I get away from the pull to go back
 HL> there?
    Yeah, that's a dilemma alright.  I can't relate to it.  Haven't
    had to deal with it.  Ain't got nuthin but off the wall advice on
    that one.
    'bout the closet thing I can think of was how hard it was to get a
    divorce from the service nazi crowd.  It was hard.  But after I
    got a life that I liked being in, it got easier.  Nowadays, I
    can stand to be around them, as long as we don't talk about
    anything that has to do with people who aren't there.
    And that pretty much terminates the conversation.  hehehhe
 HL> I still find myself going "to the hardware store for milk".  And 
    It's a way hard habit to break.  It's tragic and pathetic, for
    sure.  I get the pull to hang out with other clueless types when
    I'm in a toxic shame spiral.  Man, talk about adding rocket fuel
    to a lawn fire.....
 HL> am repeatedly disappointed to find out they don't have, can't give
 HL> me, what I need.  I *still* want to find it there.  A lack of
 HL> acceptance, perhaps?
    oh yeah, totally.  Leastwise, that's how it is for me.  When I'm
    going to the hardware store for milk, it's because I hate my need
    for milk, and I'm looking for people who will agree with me.
    I still want, at times, the ferengi fuck who owns this company to
    give me a feeling of being important.  Man, what a set up.
 HL> It seems to me that there should be a middle ground, somewhere between
 HL> not having anything to do with them, and being totally enmeshed with
 HL> them.  Unfortunately, I can't find that balance...and neither, it
 HL> seems, can they.  Lack of anything but total enmeshment doesn't seem to
 HL> be acceptable to them...and I take a lot of abuse because of it.  So
    I know that for several years, even after I "knew" the difference,
    my deeply held definition of relationship was total emeshment.  I
    could say different words, but my behavior reflected the truth of
    my beliefs.  Painfull.
    Getting abused for not fitting in and playing "right" really
    sucks.  Six and seven time, for sure.
    From what I've read, and chosen to believe, learning how to fit in
    is like grade school level development.  Learning how to dress
    alike and talk alike and all that.  Learning how to have a life
    independant of a particular crowd is like a developemental stage
    that, I think, is supposed to happen like in yer twenties or
    something.
    I comfort myself with that one.  At least my developmental issues
    are getting closer to my chronological age.
 HL> I tend to think that, maybe, I shouldn't have anything to do with
 HL> them.  But that doesn't feel like the right answer either.
    The only thing that comes to mind, for me, about that, is that
    when I'm real grounded and centered and appreciative of me, I can
    let others have their own drama alot easier.
    And, I'm way less interested in how they feel about how and what
    I'm doing.  I'm too busy doing what I'm doing to take time out to
    monitor my progress by watching their reactions.
    I tell ya, I'm glad that I don't have that one going on, today.  I
    can imagine how it could be to have some kind of desire to hang
    out with people I've got nothing in common with, but it stretches
    my imagination to the edges of creduality.
 HL> More will be revealed, I guess.
    No guessing needed.  As long as yer looking, the view keeps
    changing.
    Oh, by the by, I most highly recommend "The Eagles Quest" by Fred
    Alan Wolf to all my friends who are into the healing arts.  And I
    thought of you in specific.  I'm remembering some conversations we
    had a while ago about the Qabala (sp?).   He's got some real cool
    stuff to say about that, and how it pertains to quantum physics
    and Peruvian shaman healing techniques.  Like, how it's all kinda
    the same thing with just a slight culturally inclined vocabulary
    twist.
    Billy O sez "yo, check it out."
--- Blue Wave/QBBS v2.12 [NR]
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