* Crossposted from: Blue Wave
Steve Hayes is replying to Don Alt, who wrote to All on 09 Aug 96  15:13:24:
Hi Don,
I know this is an old message, but I came across it when I was archiving mail 
to stiffies, and thought I would reply anyway :-)
 DA> As an aside, almost all "word processors" like Word Perfect, MS-Word,
 DA> and WordStar, both DOS and Windows versions, also support this
 DA> feature, but it is from these word processors that folks in Fidonet
 DA> got this idea and added them in the proposed specs in FTS-0001 Rev 16.
 DA> You see, most DOS and other editors, including editors for Windows,
 DA> put a hard carriage return (CR) and line feed (LF) at the end of every
 DA> line and every time the [ENTER] key is used. The CRLF is Hex 0D0A or
 DA> Decimal 1410. The above named editors cannot handle having CRLFs at
 DA> the end of every line. They only expect a CRLF (carriage return & line
 DA> feed) at the end of every paragraph, instead of at the end of every
 DA> line. Thus, these editors screw up quoted lines.
 DA> The Internet (pvt email) and the Usenet (public Newsgroups like Fido
 DA> echoes), do not use "free flowing text" either. It's just the
 DA> opposite, the Internet and Usenet specs demand that each line have a
 DA> CRLF. 
 DA> This puts Internet/Usenet in conflict with the proposed Fidonet specs
 DA> and is one of several reasons why the Fidonet proposed specs never
 DA> became official.
 DA> As a result, editors like TimEd, GoldEd, and the editors in FrontDoor
 DA> and GEdit cannot be used for Internet pvt Email or for posting in any
 DA> UseNet newsgroup. Yet they are still being used here in Fidonet
 DA> because the soft- ware authors jumped the gun and assumed things they
 DA> should have assumed. They assumed the specs for free flowing text
 DA> would become Fidonet law, and they were wrong.
 DA> Other editors, in fact the _majority_ of editors, and there are
 DA> thousands of them to choose from, do not have free flowing text and do
 DA> insert a CRLF at the end of every line. This is the _correct_ way to
 DA> it and how messages should be done.
 DA> Of all the people around the word who use OLMRs (offline mail
 DA> readers) virtually 99.999% of them use editors that do put CRLFs at
 DA> the end of each line, as should be. In the QWK mail format, which
 DA> thousands of people use to do their offline mail, free formed text is
 DA> prohibited. The QWK specs forbid free formed text... yet "free flowing
 DA> text" is still being used in the QWK format in direct violation of the
 DA> QWK specs. 
I am using a word processor called XyWrite to write this message, and like 
most word processors, it only puts a CRLF at the end of paragraphs, not at 
the end of lines.
Does that screw things up for you?
I suggest that it doesn't, because when Blue Wave saves the message, it 
automatically puts in CRLFs at the right places - at least when it is using 
native Blue Wave packets, instead of QWK ones. If I use QWK, I then have to 
remember to press enter at the end of each line, otherwise people using 
brain-dead readers can't read them (Blue Wave handles them fine). 
 DA> Note that it is usually only SysOps who use "free flowing text." It
 DA> is because GoldEd, TimEd and the other editors with the "free flowing
 DA> text" feature are BBS support software. And if these SysOps are using
 DA> the QWK format then they are violating the QWK specs. :-)   Doesn't
 DA> every BBS have a "QWK Mail door?" :-)
Yes, I have one, it came bundled with Silver Xpress :-)
 DA> Sysops!  It's time to replace your old editors like GoldEd, TimEd and
 DA> etc that are complying to proposed Fido specs that never became
 DA> official with a better editor that can handle CRLFs at the end of
 DA> every line so quoting stops getting screwed up. Why use old fashioned
 DA> and outdated software? 
The trouble is, I've never found any editor, or word processor for that 
matter, to beat XyWrite. 
My wife just installed the latest version of MS Word on a new computer for 
the office. It has more bells and whistles, but no more features. I freely 
admit that XyWrite lacks talking paper clips and gesticulating Einsteins. But 
though it is now 10 years old, it still PROCESSES WORDS better than any 
"upgrade" I've ever seen. 
I'll gladly update my software when the newer programs are better than the 
old. But the trouble is, they are not as good. XyWrite and Blue Wave work for 
me. 
 DA> The world is getting smaller. Already the Blue Wave offline mail
 DA> reader and others can do Internet pvt email and Usenet newsgroups.
 DA> They comply to both the Fidonet specs and the Internet/Usenet specs.
 DA> Is it unreasonable for users to expect their SysOps of setting a good
 DA> example by complying to specifications?  No. That is not
 DA> unreasonable! SysOps are supposed to know the rules and be setting
 DA> good examples. 
I regularly use Blue Wave with XyWrite for internet e-mail, and haven't had 
any problems with people not being able to read my messages. 
What does cause me problems is messages OTHER people send with HTML code in - 
they obviously haven't learnt to distinguish between a Web page and an e-mail 
message.
 DA> SysOps, please STOP using anal-retentive software that screws up the
 DA> works... especially in Fidonet echoes!
What does "anal-retentive" mean in this context?
Constipated?
My employer insisted that we use a very expensive kind of mail software 
called Novell GroupWise (formerly Word Perfect office). The stupid thing 
can't even do proper reply quoting.
And I see dozens of e-mail messages written by people whose software can't do 
proper reply quoting. And they are using far more recent software than my 
"outdated" Blue Wave/XyWrite combination.
I'll "upgrade" when the new software can perform better than the old. At the 
moment, as far as I can see, it performs a lot worse.
Let me know if you have problems reading this message :-)
Keep well,
Steve Hayes
E-mail: steveh@khanya.bbs.co.za
   WWW: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734
... Steve Hayes - Editorial Department, University of South Africa
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