MICHAEL MARTINEZ Re: IVAN ILLICH RON MCDERMOTT 07-29-96
MM> -=> Quoting Ron McDermott to Michael Martinez <=-
MM>School tends to effectively eliminate people that don't hack it.  But
MM>this is only justified on a curriculum and a method of learning that
MM>_other_ people demand.  The students that drop out, are instantly
MM>disqualified from getting many jobs, advancing their learning in 
MM>other areas, and so on.  But, under a different system of learning,
MM>where it's easy for you to learn what _you're_ interested in,
MM>these very same students would be much more excited, they would learn
MM>much more and they would effectively acquire the skills that they
MM>want, _when_ they want. 
This is very interesting.  I'd be interested to know what specifically 
you are referring to when you suggest that students learn only what is 
of interest to them. Like what for example?  Let's say that I am 
teaching a class on writing.  I have 5 students who HATE to write, or so 
they say.  Should they be allowed to take another class?  What of 
history?  What of math?  
I know of students who have very little interest in much of anything.  
Without some form of guidance (you call it something else I guess) these 
kids would opt for learning nothing at all.
MM>Why should you provide a certificate of graduation to learn something
MM>or teach something that you want?  It's ridiculous. 
Explain this?
MM> RM> Hmmm.... Do not the people exclude themselves to a large 
MM> RM> extent?
MM> 
MM>Absolutely not.  Most people in high school aren't interested in
MM>schoool, right?  But if things were fair in this country, that
MM>wouldn't automatically deny them:  college, a whole range of jobs
MM>that require an educational degree, positions of authority.
If a student is not interested in high school and does not apply him/her 
self, how could one possibly expect them to cut it in college.  And 
regarding the "fairness" you mentioned.  You consider it unfair for some 
lazy unmotivated high school student to be excluded from college (and in 
effect better job opportunities) because the college won't admit 
him/her?  If they are interested in going to college they had better get 
prepared for it in high school!
  
MM>It's the difference being being _forced_ to learn something, and
MM>learning something because you're excited about it and want to.  The
MM>school system forces you.  It's not there to provide services that 
MM>we're interested in.  We _have_ to go to school.  That doesn't
MM>promote learning, it promotes forced obedience.  Sure, some people
MM>learn, they're the people who are inclined to learn under such
MM>conditions.  But, shouldn't learning be tailored to _everybody_?
There are certain things that you may consider "boring" but are 
essential learning outcomes.  I suppose you have a point though.  And to 
carry this point to it's logical conclusion we could say that:
It isn't fair in this country that you have to do work that you don't 
like to do.  It's like being _forced_ to do a job that you have no 
interest in.  It would be more _fair_ if everyone would only have to do 
work that they were really "excited" about.  Working in a job that 
forces you to do something you don't like is "forced obedience."  
Shouldn't people be given jobs that they truly want and are excited 
about?  And they shouldn't have to go to boring school either to get a 
good job they like.  After all, *EVERYTHING* we need to know in life we 
learn on our own anyway.
I've always wanted to be a brain surgeon.  I think it would be cool to 
cut people's heads open and fix their brains.  But I didn't like the 
classes I had to take in college because I don't like being forced to 
learn things I don't have an interest in.  I just wanted to know how to 
operate on brains and they expected me to be able to read and write!  
What does the ability to read and write have to do with being able to 
cut a guys head open?
I want to be a jet pilot too but I had to learn all this boring aviation 
stuff about how to know where I was by reading instruments and stuff 
like that.  I was even expected to know math and be able to read with 
proficiency.  All I wanted to do was fly.  It isn't fair!
Dan Triplett
dtriplett@juno.com
* CMPQwk 1.42 445p *Absolutely nothing in the world is as friendly as a wet 
dog
--- GEcho 1.11+
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