Bob Klahn -> Ed Hulett wrote:

 BK>>>  A black woman told me that night, "My grandfather was born a
 BK>>>  slave, my parents grew up under Jim Crow, and I have lived to
 BK>>>  see a black man elected president of the United States."

 EH>> It's all about feelings with you, eh?

 BK>  Without feelings there is no purpose to life.

No one said any different.

 BK>  So, you are saying you are unfeeling?

 BK>  What else was Elder's entire story about? If you don't
 BK>  understand the feelings involved you must be completely
 BK>  unfeeling.

No it isn't. It's about the hard work his father went through to make his
family's lives better and how his father wrote a letter to his eldest son
telling him not to settle for failure, but to keep on working until he
succeeds.

 BK>>>  She had tears in her eyes. She had been crying for a long time
 BK>>>  after the announcement of the election being called for Obama.

 EH>> And?

 BK>  If you do not understand it you are not completely human.

A lot of people cried that night. Some in excitement and some in fear. I did neither.

Obama isn't going to be the harbinger of change his handlers have tried to
make him out to be.

 EH>>>> It is a caricature of America that, pre-Obama, major
 EH>>>> obstacles blocked achievement. It is equally a caricature
 EH>>>> that Obama's win suddenly creates opportunity that did not
 EH>>>> exist before.

 BK>>>  It is true that Obama's win probably does not create much
 BK>>>  opportunity that did not exist before. It is also true that
 BK>>>  there are still obstacles that block achievement.

 EH>> There are obstacles for everyone regardless of skin color.

 BK>  Non-sequitor. Blacks face greater obstacles. That is the
 BK>  important part.

They face different obstacles. To say their obstacles are greater than
those of someone else merely because of their skin color is racist.

 BK>>>  The median salary for a black person with a high school diploma
 BK>>>  is equal that that of a white high school dropout. The median
 BK>>>  income for a black bachelor's degree holder equals that for a
 BK>>>  white high school graduate. For a black master's degree holder
 BK>>>  the median income is equal to that of a white bachelor's degree
 BK>>>  holder. It's only at the PHD level that the salaries equalize.

 EH>> That isn't the fault of any perceived racial obstacles.

 BK>  No, that is the fault of real racial obstacles, not just
 BK>  perceived racial obstacles. Your ignorance of the subject is
 BK>  appalling.

Some of the richest Americans are black. Tell me how hard it was for them.

 BK>>>  The unemployment rate for blacks is twice that for whites.

 BK>>>  The infant mortality rate for blacks is twice that for whites.

 BK>>>  Above from the statistical abstract of the US.

 EH>> Did you look at why that might be? Did you investigate
 EH>> beyond the statistics?

 BK>  Yes, that is why I know more about it than you do.

All you know is statistics.

 BK>>>  Aprox 23% of crimes of violence in this country are committed by
 BK>>>  blacks, according to the DOJ's report Criminal Victimization in
 BK>>>  the United States.

 EH>> They are 12% of the population.

 BK>  And twice that percentage of the poor. The crime rate tracks the
 BK>  poverty rate quite well.

Crime is not a product of poverty. Crime is a mindset. There are truly poor
people who would never commit crime. Poverty does not remove a person's
knowledge of right and wrong.

 BK>>>  Yet aprox 33% of those arrested for serious crimes are black,
 BK>>>  according to the FBI, and over 50% of those in prison are black.

 EH>> Look at the reason they are in prison. I.E. what type of
 EH>> crime they committed. You will find that those crimes were
 EH>> of a very violent nature.

 BK>  Look at the above...Ok, I'll copy it here.

 BK>  **************************************************************************
 BK>>>  Aprox 23% of crimes of violence in this country
 BK>  **************************************************************************

 BK>  I have looked into this far deeper than you have, I know the
 BK>  excuse you tried to pass off.

Then you should also know that the majority of those blacks in prison
perpetrated their crime on other blacks. Other blacks who are also poor.

 EH>> Again, you can't just look at raw statistics and make a
 EH>> case.

 BK>  If you don't look at raw statistics you are just looking at what
 BK>  someone else has filtered for you. So, you like others to do
 BK>  your thinking for you?

Raw statistics are meaningless.

 BK>  I have been looking at this for a very long time. I have looked
 BK>  at FBI and DOJ studies. I have compared the rates. I am way
 BK>  ahead of you on this.

You have your own agenda on this. You think of yourself as a savior of the
poor blacks. You are more racist than anyone I've encountered.

 BK>>>  Yes, black people do face obstacles greater than whites face.

 EH>> And you like it that way.

 BK>  You are the one who wants to keep it that way. Your lies reveal
 BK>  your true motives.

Why would I want to keep it that way? I don't have any axes to grind on
this issue. You do. You need them to be dependent on you so you can feel
superior.

 BK>>>  ...

 EH>>>> So this penniless boy, living in the Jim Crow South as the
 EH>>>> Great Depression loomed, started knocking on doors. He
 EH>>>> finally got a job running errands and tending the yard for

 BK>>>  ...

 EH>>>> private employer of blacks. He traveled all over the
 EH>>>> country, making a mental note of California because, he
 EH>>>> says, its beauty and warm weather seemed open and inviting,
 EH>>>> and the people seemed more fair.

 BK>>>  ...

 EH>>>> My father arrived in Los Angeles and went from restaurant
 EH>>>> to restaurant to find work. "Sorry," he was
told, "you have
 EH>>>> no references." "Sorry, you have no
credentials." "Sorry .
 EH>>>> . ." He, of course, knew why.

 BK>>>  And you still don't get it. Do you think Elder's father was so
 BK>>>  much smarter that he knew why he wasn't finding work, but black
 BK>>>  men today don't?

 EH>> Argue with Larry Elder over that. I posted the article.

 BK>  You posted it, but you don't understand it.

I understand it far better than you ever will.

 EH>>>> He went to an employment office. The woman said, "We have
 EH>>>> no openings." My dad said, "I'll sit until
you do." He sat
 EH>>>> in that office from opening until closing for a day and a
 EH>>>> half. Finally, the woman called him to the desk and said:
 EH>>>> "I have a job. It's for a janitor. Do you want it?"

 EH>>>> My dad worked at that job for nearly 10 years, while
 EH>>>> working a second full-time job for nearly as long and
 EH>>>> cooking for a white family on the weekends. He somehow
 EH>>>> managed to go to night school to get his GED and save
 EH>>>> enough money, while in his 40s, to start a small cafe near
 EH>>>> downtown Los Angeles.

 EH>>>> He ran the cafe, which provided my brothers and me weekend
 EH>>>> and summer jobs, until he was in his 80s. One day, my dad

 BK>>>  ...

 EH>>>> So, yes, Obama's historic victory makes a statement about
 EH>>>> the long, hard, bloody journey. Obama makes people believe.
 EH>>>> Some of us always did.

 BK>>>  There are those who say many whites see blacks as a monolith. It
 BK>>>  seems there are some blacks who see blacks as a monolith. Larry
 BK>>>  Elders seems to be one of them. He seems to think, because
 BK>>>  things worked out for him they will work out for all blacks who
 BK>>>  follow his path. He forget's his fathers advice he quoted in
 BK>>>  that article.

 EH>> Good grief, you are dense.

 BK>  You are the one who still doesn't get it. You are the one who
 BK>  thinks feelings are irrelevant. You are the one who thinks
 BK>  blacks are such a monolith that if one makes it they all can do
 BK>  exactly the same. It don't work that way.

No, you treat blacks as a monolith. I pointed out those who have overcome
their obstacles to show that all any of them need is determination and a
reasonable goal. Too often they give in to peer pressure and eschew a good
education so they can be "different" and hip.

Those who apply themselves and learn what they need to learn despite the
pressures and make something of their lives are often ostracized as
sellouts by their peers.

Early in Obama's presidential campaign there was talk among black leaders
whether he was black enough. It wasn't until he started winning primaries
that they jumped on his bandwagon. What kind of message does that give to
young blacks who want to get ahead?

 BK>>>  He quoted his father as telling his older brother to think for
 BK>>>  himself. What he doesn't seem to understand is, thinking for
 BK>>>  yourself means you will make mistakes, and mistakes should not
 BK>>>  be a condemnation to perpetual failure. Yet when you face more
 BK>>>  obstacles than others, that is exactly what it can be.

 EH>> Larry Elder's father didn't let that stop him.

 BK>  Larry Elder's father didn't talk to you. You have no idea what
 BK>  his life was. Most poor people are working poor. Most poor
 BK>  blacks are working poor. And people like you are determined to
 BK>  keep it that way. People like you are determined to keep the
 BK>  obstacles in place.

It was all in the letter Larry included in his article. He didn't have to
talk to me, I know how to read.

 BK>>>  I have posted this before, I do wonder what this man would say
 BK>>>  today. With the attitude of the whites in Fidonet who believe
 BK>>>  all black failure is due to blacks being failures I suspect this
 BK>>>  has not changed.

 EH>> What on earth are you talking about?

 BK>  The fact that you don't understand shows just how ignorant you
 BK>  are.

Anyone's failure is due to them being a failure, idiot.


 EH>> ************************************************************
 EH>> **************

 BK>>>  From a prominent black Federal official in the late '80s.

 BK>>>    ''There is nothing you can do to get past black skin. I don't care
 BK>>>  how educated you are, how good you are at what you do -- ((if you
 BK> are
 BK>>>  black)) you'll never have the same contacts or opportunities, you'll
 BK>>>  never be seen as equal to whites.


 EH>> ************************************************************
 EH>> **************

 EH>> That didn't stop Larry Elder's father and it didn't stop
 EH>> Barack Obama.

 BK>  You still don't get it. You have no understanding of humanity at
 BK>  all. You have no idea how success is distributed... yes...
 BK>  distributed. You have no idea how often hard work is met with
 BK>  failure, in good part because people like you keep the barriers
 BK>  in place.

People like me? How on earth do you get the idea I am in any position to
put barriers in anyone's path to success?

 BK>  If you think there are no barriers then you are truly as dense
 BK>  as they come. Or just totally indifferent to humanity.

I never said there were no barriers. I gave you examples of two who
succeeded regardless of barriers. Tim Richardson gave several more.

 BK>  What is truly incredible, and contemptable, is that you take
 BK>  Elder's story as one more chance to demean Obama's achievement.

I didn't demean anyone's achievement, moron.

 BK>  And as contemptable, is that Elders seems to have meant it that
 BK>  way.

You read a lot into things that just isn't there.

You are so filled with hatred that you will say anything to attack people
you know nothing about.

Ed

-- 
"The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is
to fill the world with fools." --Herbert Spencer

"The republican is the only form of government which is not
eternally at open or secret war with the rights of mankind."
-- Thomas Jefferson

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