Bob Klahn -> Ed Hulett wrote:
 EH>> Bob Klahn -> Ed Hulett wrote:

 BK>>>>>  A black woman told me that night, "My
grandfather was born a
 BK>>>>>  slave, my parents grew up under Jim Crow, and I
have lived to
 BK>>>>>  see a black man elected president of the United
States."

 EH>>>> It's all about feelings with you, eh?

 BK>>>  Without feelings there is no purpose to life.

 EH>> No one said any different.

 BK>  Then your comment was meaningless.

Only in your mind.

 BK>>>  So, you are saying you are unfeeling?

 BK>>>  What else was Elder's entire story about? If you don't
 BK>>>  understand the feelings involved you must be completely
 BK>>>  unfeeling.

 EH>> No it isn't. It's about the hard work his father went
 EH>> through to make his family's lives better and how his
 EH>> father wrote a letter to his eldest son telling him not to
 EH>> settle for failure, but to keep on working until he
 EH>> succeeds.

 BK>  If that were all it was about then all he needed to say was, "
 BK>  My father went through hard work to make his family's lives
 BK>  better and my father wrote a letter to his eldest son telling
 BK>  him not to settle for failure, but to keep on working until he
 BK>  succeeds."

That's basically what he said, moron.

 BK>  If you actually understood what he wrote you know that was not
 BK>  all it was about.

I read what he wrote. You didn't. Or at least you didn't understand it.

 BK>>>>> She had tears in her eyes. She had been crying for
a long time
 BK>>>>> after the announcement of the election being called
for Obama.

 EH>>>> And?

 BK>>>  If you do not understand it you are not completely human.

 EH>> A lot of people cried that night. Some in excitement and
 EH>> some in fear. I did neither.

 BK>  Neither did I, but I understood those who did. Those rejoicing,
 BK>  and the bigots who cried in fear.

It is now bigoted for someone to fear the policies of the president-elect? Do tell.

 EH>> Obama isn't going to be the harbinger of change his
 EH>> handlers have tried to make him out to be.

 BK>  He has already been a harbinger of change.

What change?

 BK>  Just what change the future brings will be dictated by what
happens in the future.

You should put that on a t-shirt or bumper sticker.

 EH>>>>>> It is a caricature of America that, pre-Obama, major
 EH>>>>>> obstacles blocked achievement. It is equally a caricature
 EH>>>>>> that Obama's win suddenly creates opportunity
that did not
 EH>>>>>> exist before.

 BK>>>>>  It is true that Obama's win probably does not create much
 BK>>>>>  opportunity that did not exist before. It is also true that
 BK>>>>>  there are still obstacles that block achievement.

 EH>>>> There are obstacles for everyone regardless of skin color.

 BK>>>  Non-sequitor. Blacks face greater obstacles. That is the
 BK>>>  important part.

 EH>> They face different obstacles. To say their obstacles are
 EH>> greater than those of someone else merely because of their
 EH>> skin color is racist.

 BK>  To deny their obstacles are greater because of the prejudice
 BK>  against their skin color is what is racist.

Huh? Did you proof read that before posting it?

 BK>>>>>  The median salary for a black person with a high
school diploma
 BK>>>>>  is equal that that of a white high school dropout.
The median
 BK>>>>>  income for a black bachelor's degree holder equals
that for a
 BK>>>>>  white high school graduate. For a black master's
degree holder
 BK>>>>>  the median income is equal to that of a white
bachelor's degree
 BK>>>>>  holder. It's only at the PHD level that the
salaries equalize.

 EH>>>> That isn't the fault of any perceived racial obstacles.

 BK>>>  No, that is the fault of real racial obstacles, not just
 BK>>>  perceived racial obstacles. Your ignorance of the subject is
 BK>>>  appalling.

 EH>> Some of the richest Americans are black. Tell me how hard
 EH>> it was for them.

 BK>  Some of your best friends are -     - fill in the blank.

All of my best friends are great people regardless of their skin color.

 BK>  Again, because some make it you insist there is no real
 BK>  obstacle. Ask them how it was. Some probably inherited their
 BK>  wealth, just like so many whites. Some probably went through
 BK>  hell few whites ever know.

I did not deny they had obstacles.

The majority of those you consider wealthy have become wealthy on their own
without inheriting anything from their parents.

Your insistence that those who are wealthy have become so through
inheritance begs the question of how did their parents become wealthy?

 BK>>>>>  The unemployment rate for blacks is twice that for whites.

 BK>>>>>  The infant mortality rate for blacks is twice that
for whites.

 BK>>>>>  Above from the statistical abstract of the US.

 EH>>>> Did you look at why that might be? Did you investigate
 EH>>>> beyond the statistics?

 BK>>>  Yes, that is why I know more about it than you do.

 EH>> All you know is statistics.

 BK>  And you dismiss statistics as if a few thousand deaths don't
 BK>  matter because you don't know them.

Say what? Now *that* is a non-sequitur.

 BK>>>>>  Aprox 23% of crimes of violence in this country
are committed by
 BK>>>>>  blacks, according to the DOJ's report Criminal
Victimization in
 BK>>>>>  the United States.

 EH>>>> They are 12% of the population.

 BK>>>  And twice that percentage of the poor. The crime rate tracks the
 BK>>>  poverty rate quite well.

 EH>> Crime is not a product of poverty.

 BK>  Yes, AAMOF it is. If it wasn't the crime rate would not go up
 BK>  with poverty, and go down as poverty goes down.

The crime rate does not go up with poverty. Poverty today is lower than it
was 10 years ago yet crime has not gone down. Especially violent crime.

 EH>> Crime is a mindset.

 BK>  Nice cover. Rationalization is whitewash for the soul. You have
 BK>  zero qualification to make that claim.

You have no qualification to make that judgment.

 EH>> There are truly poor people who would never commit crime.

 BK>  I doubt there is anyone on earth who would never commit a crime.

You have no evidence to back up such a cynical position.

 EH>> Poverty does not remove a person's knowledge of right and
 EH>> wrong.

 BK>  Poverty does remove the incentive to live according to the
 BK>  rules.

No it does not.

 BK>  A man who has followed the rules, done what he's supposed
 BK>  to for success in this society, and finds himself unable to earn
 BK>  a living because your white run Fed and Federal Govt decides to
 BK>  put him out of work to fight inflation quickly loses any
 BK>  confidence this society will ever give him a chance.

Good grief, you have no clue. Society doesn't "give" anything.
It's up to the individual to overcome the obstacles before them. Those who
give up fail. Those who keep on trying regardless of setbacks succeed.

 BK>>>>>  Yet aprox 33% of those arrested for serious crimes
are black,
 BK>>>>>  according to the FBI, and over 50% of those in
prison are black.

 BK>>>  I have looked into this far deeper than you have, I know the
 BK>>>  excuse you tried to pass off.

 EH>> Then you should also know that the majority of those blacks
 EH>> in prison perpetrated their crime on other blacks. Other
 EH>> blacks who are also poor.

 BK>  Non sequitur.

You still don't know what a non-sequitur is.

 BK>  Most whites commit crimes against other whites.

Not if we are to believe you.

 BK>  Yet they don't go to prison at twice the rate they commit
 BK>  crimes.

Blacks don't go to prison at twice the rate they commit crimes, either. For
that to happen, the police would have to be pulling law abiding citizens
off the street and throwing them into prison without trial.

 BK>  That does not change the fact that blacks do go to prison at
 BK>  twice their rate of criminal activity compared to whites.

Total nonsense. You don't even know how to read the statistics you hold so dear.

 EH>>>> Again, you can't just look at raw statistics and make a
 EH>>>> case.

 BK>>>  If you don't look at raw statistics you are just looking at what
 BK>>>  someone else has filtered for you. So, you like others to do
 BK>>>  your thinking for you?

 EH>> Raw statistics are meaningless.

 BK>  If they were no one would collect raw statistics.

They don't collect them just to use on their own, idiot.

 BK>  These are just statistics, not really raw, and they show how wrong you are.
 BK>  That's why you want to deny their relevance.

You aren't smart enough to read the stats, let alone interpret them.

 BK>>>  I have been looking at this for a very long time. I have looked
 BK>>>  at FBI and DOJ studies. I have compared the rates. I am way
 BK>>>  ahead of you on this.

 EH>> You have your own agenda on this.

 BK>  My agenda is to make this a better country.

Bull.

 BK>  What's yours? To gather all you can for yourself and the hell with
the rest of
 BK>  the country?

You know nothing about me. Absolutely nothing.

 EH>> You think of yourself as
 EH>> a savior of the poor blacks. You are more racist than
 EH>> anyone I've encountered.

 BK>  You are the true racist.

You can say that as many times as you want and it is still untrue.

 BK>  You think anyone who says something
 BK>  against blacks is just speaking the truth, and anyone who says
 BK>  anything in favor of blacks is a racist.

Huh? Again, did you proofread that before you posted?

 BK>>>>>  Yes, black people do face obstacles greater than
whites face.

 EH>>>> And you like it that way.

 BK>>>  You are the one who wants to keep it that way. Your lies reveal
 BK>>>  your true motives.

 EH>> Why would I want to keep it that way?

 BK>  Because you are a racist.

One more time. You can say that a many times and as loud as you want and it
is still untrue.

 EH>> I don't have any axes to grind on this issue.

 BK>  Yes you do. You need someone to feel superior to.

You are the one with the need for a feeling of superiority.

I have no trouble with others getting ahead legally. I don't judge people
by their skin color and I never have. I have no need to feel superior. That
is not what Jesus would do.

 EH>> You do. You need them to be
 EH>> dependent on you so you can feel superior.

 BK>  You need them to be poor and deprived so you can feel superior.

I do? Tell me how I would do that?

 BK>  That is the history of racism. Poor whites, like you, are told
 BK>  you are better because those blacks are even poorer.

You don't have a clue.

 BK>  I try to remove the barriers so no group will be any worse off
 BK>  than any other.

No, you revel in those barriers so you can feel superior and act like you
really care. If there were no barriers, you'd invent some so you could play
the benefactor.

 BK>>>>>  ...

 EH>>>>>> My father arrived in Los Angeles and went from restaurant
 EH>>>>>> to restaurant to find work. "Sorry,"
he was told, "you have
 EH>>>>>> no references." "Sorry, you have no
credentials." "Sorry .
 EH>>>>>> . ." He, of course, knew why.

 BK>>>>>  And you still don't get it. Do you think Elder's
father was so
 BK>>>>>  much smarter that he knew why he wasn't finding
work, but black
 BK>>>>>  men today don't?

 EH>>>> Argue with Larry Elder over that. I posted the article.

 BK>>>  You posted it, but you don't understand it.

 EH>> I understand it far better than you ever will.

 BK>  If you did you would realize everything he is saying still
 BK>  exists for blacks today. Perhaps not as much, but still just as
 BK>  real.

There will always be obstacles in the way of success. If there were no
obstacles, it would not be worth the effort.

You would rather have them all dependent on you and your ilk rather than to
strike out on their own and become successful.

 EH>>>> Good grief, you are dense.

 BK>>>  You are the one who still doesn't get it. You are the one who
 BK>>>  thinks feelings are irrelevant. You are the one who thinks
 BK>>>  blacks are such a monolith that if one makes it they all can do
 BK>>>  exactly the same. It don't work that way.

 EH>> No, you treat blacks as a monolith. I pointed out those who
 EH>> have overcome their obstacles to show that all any of them
 EH>> need is determination and a reasonable goal.

 BK>  Any time you start by saying, "all any of them need" you are
 BK>  treating them as a monolith. You are guilty as charged.

No, I am treating them as individuals, moron. If I was treating them as a
monolith, I'd saw "all they have to do," collectively.

 EH>> Too often they
 EH>> give in to peer pressure and eschew a good education so
 EH>> they can be "different" and hip.

 BK>  And you know this how? What makes you an expert on what *THEY*
 BK>  do? And how often?

I live within a stones throw from a high-school and see it everyday. The
"they" I refer to is young people in general and blacks in
particular.

 EH>> Those who apply themselves and learn what they need to
 EH>> learn despite the pressures and make something of their
 EH>> lives are often ostracized as sellouts by their peers.

 BK>  And you spend your days with so many black people you are an
 BK>  expert on this?

I live in a very diverse community.

 EH>> Early in Obama's presidential campaign there was talk among
 EH>> black leaders whether he was black enough. It wasn't until
 EH>> he started winning primaries that they jumped on his
 EH>> bandwagon. What kind of message does that give to young
 EH>> blacks who want to get ahead?

 BK>  What kind of message does it give young blacks that other blacks
 BK>  demean his achievement, and try to trivialize the joy most
 BK>  blacks feel at his victory?

Yes, what message did it give them?

 BK>  And the fact that you seem to think that blacks aren't even
 BK>  allowed to talk about it suggests you think you are the lord of
 BK>  black thought.

That wasn't the point at all, moron. That is you trying to put words in my
mouth. A tactic you use repeatedly when you know you have no refutation of
the facts.

 BK>>>>>  He quoted his father as telling his older brother
to think for
 BK>>>>>  himself. What he doesn't seem to understand is, thinking for
 BK>>>>>  yourself means you will make mistakes, and
mistakes should not
 BK>>>>>  be a condemnation to perpetual failure. Yet when
you face more
 BK>>>>>  obstacles than others, that is exactly what it can be.

 EH>>>> Larry Elder's father didn't let that stop him.

 BK>>>  Larry Elder's father didn't talk to you. You have no idea what
 BK>>>  his life was. Most poor people are working poor. Most poor
 BK>>>  blacks are working poor. And people like you are determined to
 BK>>>  keep it that way. People like you are determined to keep the
 BK>>>  obstacles in place.

 EH>> It was all in the letter Larry included in his article. He
 EH>> didn't have to talk to me, I know how to read.

 BK>  No, you don't You do not have the slightest idea what story was
 BK>  really told in that article.

Then tell me what the story was really about. And after that, tell Larry
Elder all about it, too. I'm sure he would be amused at your
interpretation.

 BK>>>>>  I have posted this before, I do wonder what this
man would say
 BK>>>>>  today. With the attitude of the whites in Fidonet
who believe
 BK>>>>>  all black failure is due to blacks being failures
I suspect this
 BK>>>>>  has not changed.

 EH>>>> What on earth are you talking about?

 BK>>>  The fact that you don't understand shows just how ignorant you
 BK>>>  are.

 EH>> Anyone's failure is due to them being a failure, ...

 BK>  Not unless you think the men who didn't make it ashore on D-day
 BK>  were failures, becuase they failed to make it to the beach.

That's exactly the point. over 2000 men failed on that day, but conversely
several 10s of thousands made it. Should those who succeeded instead have
turned back until some divine hand had removed all of the obstacles?

 BK>  Not unless you think those who made the small discoveries that led
 BK>  to almost every big discovery because they failed to find the
 BK>  ultimate goal.

They failed the ultimate goal, but succeeded in taking those small steps toward it.

 BK>  Not unless you think trying till you die is failure, idiot.

Not in the least. A success is one who does not stop when they reach an
obstacle whether they die before they achieve their ultimate goal or not.

 EH>>>> That didn't stop Larry Elder's father and it didn't stop
 EH>>>> Barack Obama.

 BK>>>  You still don't get it. You have no understanding of humanity at
 BK>>>  all. You have no idea how success is distributed... yes...
 BK>>>  distributed. You have no idea how often hard work is met with
 BK>>>  failure, in good part because people like you keep the barriers
 BK>>>  in place.

 EH>> People like me? How on earth do you get the idea I am in
 EH>> any position to put barriers in anyone's path to success?

 BK>  You do your share. You may just put one brick in the wall, but
 BK>  you do that much.

I do? Explain how I would do that.

 BK>>>  If you think there are no barriers then you are truly as dense
 BK>>>  as they come. Or just totally indifferent to humanity.

 EH>> I never said there were no barriers. I gave you examples of
 EH>> two who succeeded regardless of barriers. Tim Richardson
 EH>> gave several more.

 BK>  Wow! Two!

There are millions more.

 BK>  Lots of whites fail also.

Quite true.

 BK>  That doesn't change the fact that blacks have to climb further to
reach the same height.

And you want it that way so you can feel superior and act like you care.

 BK>>>  What is truly incredible, and contemptable, is that you take
 BK>>>  Elder's story as one more chance to demean Obama's achievement.

 EH>> I didn't demean anyone's achievement, ...

 BK>  Yes, you did, with every word you said belittling and demeaning
 BK>  black people, moron.

Where did I do that? Idiot.

 BK>>>  And as contemptable, is that Elders seems to have meant it that
 BK>>>  way.

 EH>> You read a lot into things that just isn't there.

 BK>  You fail to see what is there.

I read it word for word, twice, before I posted it. I know what Larry Elder
was saying. You think your interpretation is what Larry really meant.

 EH>> You are so filled with hatred that you will say anything to
 EH>> attack people you know nothing about.

 BK>  I know a lot about you, and what I know is, you are filled with
 BK>  contempt for black people. That and totally ignorant of what
 BK>  this society holds up to stop them.

You don't know a thing about me. You are making things up. IOW, you are
lying about me.

Put up or shut up, moron.

Ed

-- 
"The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is
to fill the world with fools." --Herbert Spencer

"The republican is the only form of government which is not
eternally at open or secret war with the rights of mankind."
-- Thomas Jefferson

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