HW> Hi Day, Sorry I was cut off.
 -> The separation is, that I do not see any Jew who does not claim to speak
 -> in God's name, nor any Greek with the chutzpah to.
 HW> The Athenian, at Laws IV 716e: "What line of conduct then is dear to God
 HW> and a following of him? There is but one, and it is summed up in one
 HW> ancient rule, the rule that 'like'--when it is a thing of due measure--
 HW> 'loves its like.'...Now it is God who is, for you and me, of a truth the
 HW> ' measure of all things,' much more truly than, as they say, 'man'.  So
 HW> he who would be beloved by such a being must himself become such to the
 HW> utmost of his might, and so, by this argument, he that is temperate
 HW> among us is loved by God, for he is like God.". [Taylor trans.]
 HW> From the Republic, II, at 382e "Then there is no motive for God to
 HW> deceive. --None So from every point of view, the divine and the divinity
 HW> are free from falsehoods. --By all means. Then God is altogether simple
 HW> and true in deed and word, and neither changes himself nor deceives
 HW> others by visions or words or the sending of signs in waking or in
 HW> dreams. --I myself think so, he said, when I hear you say it. You concur
 HW> then, I said, in this as our second norm or canon for speech and poetry
 HW> about the gods--that neither are they wizards in shape shifting nor do
 HW> they mislead us by falsehoods in words or deed? --I concur."  [Shorey
 HW> Trans.]
 HW> Stranger at Statesman 271d "In that era God was supreme governor in
 HW> charge of the actual rotation of the universe as a whole, but divine
 HW> also, and in like manner was the government of its several regions, for
 HW> these were all portioned out to be provinces under the surveillance of
 HW> tutelary deities. Over every herd of living creatures throughout all
 HW> their tribes was set a heavenly daemon to be its shepherd.  Each of them
 HW> was all in all to his flock--providing the needs of his charges.
 HW> ....When God was shepherd there were no political constitutions and no
 HW> taking of wives and begetting of children.  For all men rose up anew
 HW> into life out of the earth,....they had fruits without stint from trees
 HW> and bushes; these needed no cultivation but sprang up themselves out of
 HW> the ground without man's toil.  This is the story Socrates, of the life
 HW> of men under the governement  of Cronus. ...."
 HW> [after this golden age, God let go the rudder of the universe, and a
 HW> crisis ensued, then...]
 HW> [273d] " The God looks upon it [the physical world] again, he who first
 HW> set it in order. Beholding it in its troubles, and anxious for it lest
 HW> it sink racked by storms and confusion, and be dissolved again in the
 HW> bottomless abyss of unlikeness, he takes control of the helm once more.
 HW> Its former sickness he heals; what was disrupted in its former
 HW> revolution under its  own impulse, he brings back into the way of
 HW> regularity.... "  [Skemp trans.] [All of the above from _Collected
 HW> Dialogues_ {Bollingen 1961}....
 HW> Socrates argues that we live in a polluted hollow, a tiny part of the
 HW> whole or true earth.  He speaks  of the "true" or "real" earth:
 HW> Phaedo 111b  "They [inhabitants] also have sanctuaries and temples which
 HW> are truly inhabited by gods, and oracles and prophecies and visions and
 HW> all other kinds of communion with the gods occur there face to face....
 HW> Such is the nature of the [true] earth as a whole and of the things that
 HW> are upon it."  [Tredennick trans]
 HW> Speaking of daemons Phaedo 107d "When any man dies, his own guardian
 HW> spirit, which was given charge over him in his life, tries to bring him
 HW> to a certain place where all must assemble, and from which, after
 HW> submitting their several cases to judgement, they must set out for the
 HW> next world, ...another guide brings them back again after many vast
 HW> periods of time." [ibid]
 HW> I agree that the above are not prophecies, but they are of Greeks
 HW> speaking "for" and about God.  The Phaedo material clearly recognizes a
 HW> role for prophets, but there is an underlying skepticism--not unlike
 HW> yours--about any given worldly claimants to the title. So I do not
 HW> pretend to know all about Greek oracles and seers. I remember Cassandra,
 HW> and the Delphic oracle. In any case, I submit the ancient Hebrew
 HW> prophecy is not unique of its kind, in terms of (alleged ) messages from
 HW> God/gods. There are other near eastern prophecies extant, as well.
 HW> Overall, I think your comparison is skewed since you read Greek,
 HW> philosophical arguments alongside Hebrew relgious material. IOW you pay
 HW> not enough attention to Greek religion, and to religious thoughts
 HW> clearly embedded (see above) in philosophical discussions.  If you want
 HW> to argue for the striking acuity of Plato's philosophizing, fine.  But
 HW> it is a mistake, IMHO, to extend that point to some overall contrast of
 HW> Greek "reason" and philosophy, to Hebrew unreason and revelation. Surely
 HW> it is clear from the excerpts above that the various speakers have NOT
 HW> simply reasoned things out;  they are appealing to "religious" or even
 HW> mystical experiences, experiences of communion-- "revelation" if you
 HW> will-- from God/gods. Peace.  Hal.
   Your exposition is learned and masterful, Hal, and you are to be
congratulatedfor presenting it.  I also do not share Day's too-wide disparity
between Greeks and Jews and I have, with still great respect for his opinions
for he is also widely read in the classics.
   Nevertheless, I must point out that you come far too close, IMHO, to
equating the Judeo-Christian love for Jaweh who is differentiating into the
one God of all mankind with the Platonic love of the divine sophon among the
"sons of Zeus" which makes its way through his political advisory positions
and his writing to the mature symbol of "God" as the player of the puppets.
Certainly there is more than a hint of the dynamic of the search for a
savior-king across the spectrum of the world of the day including the Hebrews
and the Greeks but a Plato spelling out the tension in the psyche between the
divine and the human, Hal, is not a prophet, sternly calling his people to 
he
one, true, God in opposition to the Baals and Ashtarts. 
   Surely you would acknowledge THAT much difference.  With ALL elements, the
differences begin to disappear with the establishment of the Roman ecumene
which swallows up these separate cultures so that the church fathers and 
ater
philosophers (like Augustine) could have the language and symbolism to 
evelop
the merger of history and philosophy that issued in Christianity.  
   Christianity's treatment of the Jews (as is treatment of those followers 
f
its own doctrine that became "heresies" as the "main heresy" won out is
another problem that I see as separate from this.  While Plato could only
manage his erotic love of the divine sophon it WAS the Hebrew God, jealous of
"all other gods before my face" who could follow the earlier thrust of
Ikhnaton and Nefertiti toward the breakthrough of the Mosaic revelation.
Plato would have been content to be assured of some kind of spiritual order
among the poleis which he saw crumbling into the very sort of self-weakness
described so well for us by Thucydides, n'est ce pas?
Sincerely, 
                                     Frank
                                                                              
                                                       
--- PPoint 2.05
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