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echo: philos
to: DAY BROWN
from: HAL WHITE
date: 1998-04-25 04:34:00
subject: `Revealing Truth`

Hi Day,
   Sorry I was cut off.
-> The separation is, that I do not see any Jew who does not claim to
-> speak in God's name, nor any Greek with the chutzpah to.
   The Athenian, at Laws IV 716e:
   "What line of conduct then is dear to God and a following of him?
There is but one, and it is summed up in one ancient rule,
the rule that 'like'--when it is a thing of due measure-- 'loves its
like.'...Now it is God who is, for you and me, of a truth the ' measure
of all things,' much more truly than, as they say, 'man'.  So he who
would be beloved by such a being must himself become such to the utmost
of his might, and so, by this argument, he that is temperate among us is
loved by God, for he is like God.". [Taylor trans.]
   From the Republic, II, at 382e
   "Then there is no motive for God to deceive.
    --None
   So from every point of view, the divine and the divinity are free
   from falsehoods.
   --By all means.
   Then God is altogether simple and true in deed and word, and neither
changes himself nor deceives  others by visions or words or the sending
of signs in waking or in dreams.
   --I myself think so, he said, when I hear you say it.
    You concur then, I said, in this as our second norm or canon for
speech and poetry about the gods--that neither are they wizards in shape
shifting nor do they mislead us by falsehoods in words or deed?
    --I concur."  [Shorey Trans.]
     Stranger at Statesman 271d
    "In that era God was supreme governor in charge of the actual
rotation of the universe as a whole, but divine also, and in like manner
was the government of its several regions, for these were all portioned
out to be provinces under the surveillance of tutelary deities.
Over every herd of living creatures throughout all their tribes was set
a heavenly daemon to be its shepherd.  Each of them was all in all to
his flock--providing the needs of his charges.   ....When God was
shepherd there were no political constitutions and no taking of wives
and begetting of children.   For all men rose up anew into life out of
the earth,....they had fruits without stint from trees and bushes;
these needed no cultivation but sprang up themselves out of the ground
without man's toil.   This is the story Socrates, of the life of men
under the governement    of Cronus. ...."
   [after this golden age, God let go the rudder of the universe,
and a crisis ensued, then...]
[273d] " The God looks upon it [the physical world] again, he who first
set it in order. Beholding it in its troubles, and anxious for it lest
it sink racked by storms and confusion, and be dissolved again in the
bottomless abyss of unlikeness, he takes control of the helm once more.
Its former sickness he heals; what was disrupted in its former
revolution under its  own impulse, he brings back into the way of
regularity.... "  [Skemp trans.]
    [All of the above from _Collected Dialogues_ {Bollingen 1961}....
Socrates argues that we live in a polluted hollow, a tiny part of the
whole or true earth.  He speaks  of the "true" or "real" earth:
Phaedo 111b     "They [inhabitants] also have sanctuaries and temples
which are truly inhabited by gods, and oracles and prophecies and
visions and all other kinds of communion with the gods occur there face
to face....     Such is the nature of the [true] earth as a whole and
of the things that are upon it."  [Tredennick trans]
   Speaking of daemons
   Phaedo 107d
   "When any man dies, his own guardian spirit, which was given charge
over him in his life, tries to bring him to a certain place where all
must assemble, and from which, after submitting their several cases to
judgement, they must set out for the next world, ...another guide brings
them back again after many vast periods of time." [ibid]
    I agree that the above are not prophecies, but they are of
Greeks speaking "for" and about God.  The Phaedo material
clearly recognizes a role for prophets, but there is an underlying
skepticism--not unlike yours--about any given worldly claimants
to the title.
    So I do not pretend to know all about Greek oracles and seers.
I remember Cassandra, and the Delphic oracle.
    In any case, I submit the ancient Hebrew prophecy is not
unique of its kind, in terms of (alleged ) messages from God/gods.
There are other near eastern prophecies extant, as well.
Overall, I think your comparison is skewed since you read
Greek, philosophical arguments alongside Hebrew relgious material.
IOW you pay not enough attention to Greek religion, and to
religious thoughts clearly embedded (see above) in philosophical
discussions.  If you want to argue for the striking acuity of Plato's
philosophizing, fine.  But it is a mistake, IMHO, to extend that
point to some overall contrast of Greek "reason" and philosophy,
to Hebrew unreason and revelation.
    Surely it is clear
from the excerpts above that the various speakers have
NOT simply reasoned things out;  they are appealing to
"religious" or even mystical experiences, experiences of
communion-- "revelation" if you will-- from God/gods.
    Peace.   Hal.
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