>>> Part 1 of 2...
-=> Quoting Ed Grinnell to Stephen Frazier <=-
 EG> Stephen was waived by Sparky Anderson and then ranted:
 SF> Well, right now, neither Mitch nor Ryan are first basemen, and how many
 SF> of your DHs have led THEIR teams to a World Series as has the crime dog.
 EG> Paul Molitor, Eddie Murray, Dave Winfield....Need I go on?
If you're going to name everyone who DH'ed for a World Series team, tehn you 
left off about a couple dozen, including Natioinal Leaguers. Molitor was with 
Toronto, and I think he was even MVP or the best hitter during the series 
with 
the Braves, Phillies or both, but I don't see anything that tells me he was 
the driving force behind his team getting there. Same thing with Winfield and 
Murray. Their teams may have gone to the show without them, but there is NO 
WAY the Braves get to the series without the Crime Dog the past two years.
 SF> think of. You can replace a bunch of NL first basemen with your DHs, but
 SF> Ryan Klesko hit 34 homers this year. Replace that.
 EG> Berroa, Jefferson, Delgado. Hmmm, why not put Baines and Canseco out
 EG> there as well.:-)
Sure, but they need their gloves too, you know? Yo mean that Atlanta reject 
Berroa hit 34 homers? Incredible! The guy hit TWO in a hundred games in the 
National League. I think it's amazing how well some of these guys hit in the 
AL, don't yhou? Just better hitters I guess:)
 SF> In other wordsm the DH rule suits him just fine.
 EG> As it would suit McGriff.:-)
Would/could/should/whatever. Let's stay with what IS. Griff is playing first 
base and driving in a hundred runs every year. there's no WOULD in that at 
all.
 SF> Then you should have been LISTENING to it as well. Pithcers from both
 SF> leagues have done quite well over the years before the AL banned them
 SF> from the plate.
 EG> Baloney. You might find a handful of pitchers who can hit but overall,
 EG> far worse than any other position player.
Of course. If you compare them to ALL position players, but pitchers (at 
east
in the NL ) have not been as all-American out as a lot of postion players.
 SF> Lemme see..Babe Ruth hit 49 HR, 130 RBI during the same period during
 SF> which his pitching record was 89-46. During that same period, he led the
 SF> league in more offensive categories than pitching.
 EG> Looks like you're mixing stats to suit your purposes. First off, he
 EG> had 230 RBI and for the years that he was EXCLUSIVELY a pitcher, he
 EG> had 9 HR and 50 RBI. Still, he was an exception and NOT the rule.
You may be right, but the book I have shows the Babe did all this in his 
first 
five years, which is the same time he was pitching.
 SF> Don Newcombe has 15 homers and 108 RBI and was the primary PH when
 SF> not pitching.
 EG> Another exception.
They are all over the place, aren't they? All you have to do is look for  
them.
 SF> Many other great hitting pitchers' records are lost to
 SF> most record books, probably to keep from embarrassing the prima
 SF> donnas who prance around today.
 EG> No, they're NOT. Record books CLEARLY show pitchers' batting records
 EG> when that's all they did. Most of the "good" hitting pitchers have
 EG> been consistently hitting in the .160-.210 range and rare is the
 EG> pitcher that puts in 400+ ABs and makes it to the .271 that Newcombe
 EG> hit.
Well, If I can find these records I'd gladly concede the point. When th eguy 
plays only every fifth day, even less if he's a releiver, you EXPECT 
relatively lowered batting stats. I thought you would concede that. You're a 
tough one, Mr Grinch:)
 SF> See if you can find any records on Bob Gibson,
 SF> Vernon Law or Karl Spooner. Jim Palmer hit a grand slam during
 SF> the World Series. Tony Cloninger once hit TWO grand slams in the SAME
 SF> GAME (has Alberto done that yet?),
 EG> Babe Ruth didn't. God, I guess we'll have to throw his plaque out of
 EG> the HOF because of that.:-^
I don't get the point. We were talking about pictchers hitting grand slams,
not pitchers NOT hitting them.
 EG> AB   H  HR    BA
 EG> Gibson    1328 274  24  .206
 EG> Law        883 191  11  .218
 EG> Cloninger  621 119  11  .192
 EG> Palmer     489  85   3  .174
 EG> Spooner     34   9   0  .265
Gee. You left out Newcombe and the Babe? T'sa matta you?   And do these figs 
show Gibbie hit 24 homers? For 1300 at bats? As a matter of fact, ALL these 
stats compare favorable with MOST hitters who play EVERY DAY. Do they not?
 EG> to elevate these guys and demote pitchers today, why don't you look up
 EG> the records of guys who are pitching today.
Tell me where they are. There are NONE on the AL to go by, and I'll check and 
see if USA_Today Baseball has the records of pitchers (NL).
 SF> Most of these guys were doing their thing while I was listening or
 SF> watching, but it's hard to find hitting records, since pitchers only
 SF> pitch these days.
 EG> It's easy if you know where to look.
A lot easier if you tell me.
 >>> Continued to next message...
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