SA>  With your response in mind, the remarks that still ring in my ears are:
SA>  -> CB> As I said - no one *needs* to write programs
SA>  -> CB> today the operating commands are not so totally integrated with
SA>  -> CB> the programming language, as in the early TRS machines, that one
SA>  -> CB> needs to have some basic understanding of computer "programming",
SA>  I would like to see some response that might help me to see that this
SA>  is not totally blind and negatively productive bunk.  With all
SA>  the junk programs being purchased today, we definatly DO need writers.
Well, perhaps Charles will write to you about that. He has posted on the
before (as I mentioned). If you have netmail or e-mail access, I could send
you copies of his old posts on the subject.
While we may have a great need for good programmers, that doesn't mean
that everyone needs to be exposed to programming. That would be like
saying that because we have a great need for good doctors everyone needs
to study medicine. It just doesn't follow logically. Instead, I would
question the salary for programmers, the hiring practices, and the
curriculum at accredited institutions that offer degrees in programming.
Why don't we have more good programmers? I'd think that one of these things
I mention is more likely to be at fault.
SA>  DOS 7.0, WIN95, NT, MAC, and yes, even OS2 are all operating systems
SA>  that profess "user friendliness".  What tripe.  What is
SA>  happening with society is probably what has been happening to
SA>  Charles.  He is being detuned in that he is learning how to work
SA>  for the computer (and not vice versa) and therefore seems to
SA>  believe  that:
SA>  -> today the operating commands are not so totally integrated with
SA>  -> the CB> programming language, as in the early TRS machines, that one
SA>  -> needs to CB> have some basic understanding of computer "programming",
Well, Steve, I tend to be more computer capable than the average citizen
on the street, although I freely admit there is a lot I don't know.
Nevertheless, I'm more inclined to agree with Chuck, that knowledge of
programming is not necessary to use todays computer operating systems
effectively.
SA>   SK> He is only questioning whether it is necessary to make it
SA>   SK> part of the required curriculum for ALL jr. high (middle school)
SA>   SK> students, or maybe offer more as an elective for those who are
SA>   SK> interested.
SA>  It should be every bit as necessary as a fundamental math course.  Some
SA>  colleges even give language (such as Spanish or French) credit
SA>  for learning a programming language.
Well, that's your opinion. No one is disputing that programming imparts
valuable learning. They're just questioning that it's the best use of the
time we have in school with our students. (Just to give you a bit of
perspective on my response: I LOVED the programming courses I took in
college. My husband--at that time fiance--and I had a deal. I'd take a
computer course--his favorite topic--if he'd take a German course--my
favorite topic. I liked computers so much I took two more courses. I have
tried to teach my calculus students how to program their graphing
calculators--it flopped due to lack of student interest. This fall I will
be teaching AP Computer Science. In spite of all this, I think that
_requiring_ ALL students to take programming is overkill.)
SA>   SK> While I can see benefits to having all students take that type of
SA>   SK> course, Chuck has actually taught such courses and seen a fair 
amount
SA>   SK> frustration on the part of students, so he has good reason to 
suggest
SA>   SK> that it not be required.
SA>  I suspect that the problem really lies in curriculum development.  Any
SA>  course can be excrutiatingly fustrating if it is presented
SA>  wrong.
 I would have similar suspiscions. However, there will always be some
 students who simply won't care for a topic no matter how skillfully it
 is presented. Also, most 6th grade teachers are required to work with
 a fairly good sized group of students who vary widely in ability. This
 makes teaching programming very difficult, I would imagine. Some kids
 will finish the assignments quickly and need more work in order to be
 challenged and kept busy, while others will practically need one-on-one
 instruction.
SA> I question every computer instructor's background in
SA>  programming.  If they have only been "promoted" from math or
SA>  science department, the students most likely are going to be fustrated.
Well, this is another topic altogether. If a math or science teacher is
required to teach a programming course, it is hardly the fault of the
teacher that they are insufficiently prepared. This goes to the admin,
hiring practices, and etc...
Sheila
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