Salutatio Fredric!
11-Apr-98, Fredric Rice wrote to Richard Meic
          Subject: Creationist cult
 FR>> Evolution is a directly observed phenomena not subject to belief
 FR>> or disbelief.  Deity constructs don't factor into scientific
 FR>> facts.
 rm>> There are two completely different modes of thought, Mr. Rice.
 rm>> The "I believe" mode, and the "prove it" mode.
 FR> Greetings, Richard!  'Glad to see you're still talking to me.
 FR> }:-} And please call me Fred.
Fred. ;)
 FR> There are several more, though.  Among them is "you must believe
 FR> also" which the Creationist cult attempts to impose within the
 FR> public schools in America.  
     
I think that if you looked at them close enough you would notice that those
"several" other modes fall under one of the two categories I mentioned.
 FR> It's a re-enactment of the "you must
 FR> believe also" made so popular in the Dark Ages.
                                                                      
Which falls under the category of "I believe".
 rm>> We all have our own unique mixture of those modes, but hey,
 rm>> that's one thing that makes us unique and individual.  We each
 rm>> make our own choices, (THAT SHOULD BE RESPECTED), *because* we
 rm>> are individual/unique.
 FR> I would love it were theists content with making their choices and
 FR> letting the rest of the world carry on rationally.  
     
There are atheists that can be accused of the same behavior.  I have 
seen a few (including myself a while back) that try to convert the 
religious to atheism.
[...]
 FR> Yes, if cults kept themselves to themselves, I would have nothing
 FR> to say about them.  Narry a single thing.  Really.  I don't have
 FR> much to say about the Flat Earth Society because they don't seek
 FR> to impose their insane beliefs in the public schools or in
 FR> government.  Were religious cults to refrain from doing so, I
 FR> would shut the fuck up in an instant and count myself better off.
     
It is still their right as free individuals to do so.  There is no law 
that states that a xtian cannot go out and convert others to their faith.
 rm>> So, tell me why is it so imperative to "hound" a theist from echo
 rm>> to echo and attempt to make them feel bad about their *personal*
 rm>> choice to believe what they want to believe?
 FR> The argument you propose contains the logical fallacy known as
 FR> "begging the question," though.  While it is true that cultists
 FR> get asked embarrassing questions everyone knows they're incapable
 FR> of answering, one could hardly pretend that cultists are being
 FR> "hounded" when they are, in fact, saying things in public in a
 FR> forum where everyone is invited to comment.         
 
It was not an argument, it was an honest question.  I see that you and
your fellow holysmokers have this need to chase the theists out of what 
ever echo you find them in.  It looks like a holy war unto itself.  I am
asking why you have this need.
 FR> As for "choice," I think you may have missed the irony of your
 FR> choice of words.  Very few cultists ever choose their religion.
 FR> It is given to them by their parents and they are indoctrinated
 FR> into a cult.  Very few people have any choice about the matter.
                              
Untrue.  I was (as I said) baptized as a Roman Catholic, but I denounced
that religion long ago in preference of no religion.  It was my choice 
to make and (IMO) by the very act of denouncing the religion I have 
undone the baptism and i am no longer Roman Catholic.  They do make 
their choices.  Many though, choose the easiest path of acceptance.
 FR> And while we're on the subject of choice, we could look at who
 FR> wishes to deny women the right to control their own bodies.
                                                                   
Hey, let us not make things unnecessarily complicated.  I have no wish 
to get into a slam session of xtianity.
 rm>> Is it because it is fun?  Is it, perhaps a "religious" need to
 rm>> hound those who do not think the way you feel they MUST think?
 FR> One wonders what you must think of the fact that very few atheists
 FR> have any problem at all with Buddahists, Wiccans, neo-Pagans,
 FR> Quakers, or a large variety of religions and religious folk.
                                       
I - being atheist myself - have no problem with *any* religion [more on 
this later], but sometimes I do disagree with the methods of *individual* 
people.  I have noted quite a number of xtians (for example) that do not 
incessantly try to convert me to their faith.  In fact in 
conversations/debates in person about religion with them they remain quite 
logical and fair in how they go about it,... sure not all are like this, 
but there are enough that it can be concluded that xtianity is split on this.
              
[I especially like the fact that the Wiccan religion is making a 
 comeback.  Why?  Because I think this world could use more (and 
 stronger) nature based religions to balance out the overwhelming 
 numbers of HUMAN based religions]
 FR> Why do you think it is that atheists continue to point out the
 FR> evils of Christianity, Islam, and Judism while leaving the
 FR> life-affirming religions alone?
I do not know.  Why does xtianity continue to point out the evils of 
atheism?  Y'see, it goes both ways, Fred.
 rm>> Is it fair to look down on a person just because they have
 rm>> theistic thoughts?
 FR> Would that they were the only "problem."  It's unfortunate that
 FR> people who need to create deity constructs for themselves do so,
 FR> yet it is perfectly acceptable when they do -- provided they keep
 FR> their occult superstitions out of government and allow rational
 FR> people to govern themselves rationally.
                                        
It would be equally nice to see those other atheists accept religion for
what it is and carry on with their lives.  Atheists have the option of 
playing the game by the rules of the theists that are in power.  Man, I 
live by the rules of the society I grew up in, it is not that hard to do.
I still enjoy my free choices as a member of that society, and I see no
ill effects due to the religious in power.
 rm>> Are we not *ALL* human, and do we not ALL have a :*right*: to
 rm>> believe what we wish?  Do we not all deserve to have our choices
 rm>> respected?
 FR> To judge by the actions of Christianity, it would seem that we
 FR> aren't and that we don't and that we don't.  
     
You use too big of a brush in this statement, Fred.  It is the actions 
of many of the xtians NOT the actions of xtianity itself.
 FR> To judge by the
 FR> history of atheism and Humanism, it would seem that we do.
It has still not been proved that atheism is more (or less) moral then
the religious majority,... nor has it been proved that humanists are
more (or less) moral than the religious majority.
 FR> No ideology deserves repect post hoc.  
     
That is correct, but "individual" choices should be.
 FR> No ideology deserves
 FR> respect after it has been shown to be detrimental to human
 FR> progress, health, and safety.
Are you telling me that the world would have been better off without the
xtian faith to guide those who could not be moral by their own choice?  
I know, it is a very loaded question, but it must be asked,... and 
answered.  ;)
 rm>> Theist and atheist can and do get along and respect each other's
 rm>> choices, so it is POSSIBLE to achieve, yes?
 FR> Ah, yes.  Quite.  Lebanon really didn't have _12_ warring
 FR> religious factions (seven of them different brands of
 FR> Christianity) trying their best to kill each other.  Bosnia really
 FR> didn't have _two_ Christian brand names and any number of Muslim
 FR> brands rapeing, murdering, tortureing, and killing each other.
 FR> Ireland really doesn't have _two_ Christian brands doing their
 FR> best to blow up each other's children in buses on their way to
 FR> school.
             
Japan has a rather large number of religions peacefully co-existing.  It
has been that way for many centuries.  It is the choices of those in 
those religions, not the religions themselves. 
 FR> Theists and theists don't get along.  
     
I have been "getting along" with many theists, so you statement is not 
accurate.
 FR> Atheists are willing to
 FR> allow theists their occultism provided they behave like civilized
 FR> citizens.  The facts are, however, that theists have no moral or
 FR> ethical compunictions against killing because they justify their
 FR> actions as the will of their gods.
I fear that you may be suffering by the same narrow view that many
theists suffer from (ie. you have chosen an opoinion and are sticking by
it while choosing to not see evidence to the contrary).  I am sorry to 
say it, Fred but that is how it looks to me.  Your "facts" are hand-picked
out of an orchid of many other facts that can discredit your position.
 Dicere...
 email address (vrmeic@nucleus.com)
Richard Meic
--- Terminate 5.00/Pro 
---------------