Salutatio Bob!
19-Apr-98, Bob Eyer wrote to Richard Meic
          Subject: Perfection Revisited
 BE> Meic to Rigor, 4-12-98: -----------------------MR: -I wonder if
 BE> anything has caused more psychological damage to -humans than
 BE> pseudo concepts such as "perfect", "omnipotent", -"omniscient",
 BE> and other poorly defined ideas which are stretched -to the point
 BE> of being ridiculous.  My ex girlfriend seemed to be -damaged by
 BE> such ideas, and I wasn't a good enough therapist to -help her
 BE> dispose of these notions, which contributed to our -breakup --I'm
 BE> thinking of filing a class action lawsuit against western
 BE> -religions for all the bullcrap they've been putting in peoples'
 BE> -brains.  Do you guys think I have a chance of winning
 BE> >Sorry  to  say,  but  no.  Not because of any failing that you
 BE> may >have, but because  one  person  cannot  legally  stand
 BE> against  a >religion  and  win...   religions  are  too  powerful.
 BE>   Know why? >Because the  members  of  those  religions  are
 BE> members  of  your >government,  law  enforcement,  your schools,
 BE> your favorite corner >store, gas station.  They write the laws,
 BE> amend them, enforce them >and they are the judges that decide if
 BE> those laws they  write  are >broken.   But, keep up your own
 BE> individuality, if for nothing else >but to spite them.
 BE> Are  you  suggesting  here  that  the  American  constitution  has
 BE> nothing  to  say  here?
No.
In the courts such an action against a well established religion will fail
simply because the judge/jury would view it as a free choice.  Not that
difficult to do if that judge/jury are primarily theists.
Perhaps if he had an atheist judge/jury the court would then rule in favor of
him based on some other clause in the constitution.
Y'see, in the court system it is all a matter of what judge/jury you get
and what lawyer you have.  The constitution fights itself, and in a case
such as this it all falls down to what the judge/jury decides - and take
a wild guess what that decision would be if the judge and jury are
primarily theists who would likely feel that their faith is being tested
or is in danger in some way.  Still not convinced?  What would a theist
believe is more important, faith in "God" or faith in the constitution?
 BE> Your  notion  that  religions  are  "too
 BE> powerful" suggests that the result  would  be  different  if  they
 BE> were  not  so  powerful--say, if all the judges were atheists, and
 BE> religions  existed  only  in  the  backwoods.
WOW!  Nice loading of the deck here!    But, yes it
does suggest that.
 BE> I really doubt that the  unwinnable  nature  of  Rigor's  proposed
 BE> lawsuit  has  anything  to  do  with  the  power  distribution  of
 BE> religious and non-religious groups.
Explain why you doubt this.  I have explained why I do not doubt it.
 BE> Although it is true  that  the  Free  Exercise  and  Establishment
 BE> clauses of the Constitution were originally put there by Baptists,
 BE> Methodists  and  American Protestant Episcopalians, I really doubt
 BE> that, all other things being equal, those clauses would have  read
 BE> any  differently  if  they  had  been put into the Constitution by
 BE> atheists and agnostics.
Explain why.
 BE> It is well to remember that some of  the  strongest  defenders  of
 BE> those  clauses  in  recent  decades,  defenders who have won suits
 BE> based on them all the way up to and including the Supreme Court of
 BE> the United States, have been  atheists,  agnostics,  Jews,  and  a
 BE> whole  range  of  others  who were never, by similarity of belief,
 BE> involved in the formation or amendment of the Constitution.
In a perfect world with perfect people, I would agree with you, but it
is not perfect and I just do not have faith in human morality to expect
a group of people that believe in "the word of God" and have faith in it
to honor the court system.
 BE> Thus,  I  do  not  think  the  nonwinnable  character  of  Rigor's
 BE> proposed lawsuit has anything  at  all  to  do  with  sociological
 BE> power factors.
No... not ALL, but a good portion of it.  Put yourself in a theist judge's
place and try to tell me that you would not let your religion affect 
your judgement.
 BE> The narrow issue about Rigor's  question  is  about  the  existing
 BE> state  of constitutional law in the United States.  And that issue
 BE> has already been dealt with  and  apparently  settled:  Under  the
 BE> existing consitution, Rigor's lawsuit would almost certainly fail.
Judgements based on the constitution can and have been overturned by
judgements by higher courts based on the constitution.  Those words can
be bent an twisted to help any case.
------indication of a slight subject change------
 BE> But the broader issue is rooted  even  more  firmly  on  far  more
 BE> general  considerations,  such  as,  in a generally democratic and
 BE> secular society, whether changing the Religion Clauses would  ever
 BE> be supported by a population differently composed.
Say, composed primarily of atheists?  You can count on it.  "It is
illogical to assume that any situation will remain a constant".
 BE> I  highly  doubt that there would be any appreciable support among
 BE> the non-religious today for changing the Religion Clauses  of  the
 BE> Constitution.
Are you among the "non-religious"?  Even if you are, do you actually
believe that all non-religious people think like you do?  ;)
 BE> Thus I doubt that there is any basis at all for the
 BE> supposition that, if organised religion were less powerful than it
 BE> is today, there would be any political tendency to amend or repeal
 BE> those clauses.
There were those that thought that women would never get the vote,
either.  My point?  Society is ever changing, social revolutions are
always starting, ending, and in various stages in between.  No one
awakening in the morning can COUNT on their society to be exactly the
same as it was when they fell asleep.  Your constitution is by no means
the same now as it was when it was first drawn up.
 Dicere...
 email address (vrmeic@nucleus.com)
Richard Meic
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