02 Jun 06 16:50, Michiel van der Vlist wrote to Roy Witt:

 MvdV> Hello Roy.

 MvdV> 01 Jun 06 14:53, you wrote to me:

 MvdV>>>>> P4 was written with little or no concern for the situation
 MvdV>>>>> outside Z1 period.

 RW>>>> I'm sure that it wasn't, but then, there's been too many
 RW>>>> interpretations that are in error from Z2.

 MvdV>>> Who is to judge what interpretations are in error?

 RW>> Those who's knowledge of the English language is superior to those

 MvdV> And who is to judge that?

I just told you who.

 RW>> who's knowledge is second hand, interpreted into, let's say; Dutch.
 RW>> To interpret that which you claim is not your native tongue makes
 RW>> you the lasser interpretator.

 MvdV> You have given me that argument before.

It's not an arguement, it's a fact.

 MvdV> You forget that US Americans are not the only ones who have Enlish
 MvdV> as their native language.

No I haven't.

 MvdV> Native English speakers can be found in Europe as well.

Hmmm. Does England belong to urope or does urope belong to England?

 MvdV>  As in other parts of the world. And some of them support what you
 MvdV> call erroneous interpretations from Z2.

They support anything not from Z1. Therefore, their interpretations are
muddled at best.

 MvdV> Plus that ever so often you disagree among yourself about the
 MvdV> correct interpretation of P4.

Yes, those who don't have the interpretation skills of those who do,
usually lose that disagreement.

 MvdV> If you intetpretaing skiulls were so superior you would more often
 MvdV> agree among yourselfves than you do with outsiders.

Which is the case. i.e. we agree more often than not.

 MvdV> The facts do not seem to support that.

What facts are those. You've taken a poll?

 MvdV>>> We have no independent judges and the original writers have all
 MvdV>>> left.

 RW>> I'm still here.

 MvdV> You are not an independent judge.

I'm as much an independant judge as you are. Even though we're of opposite
opinion of P4 interpretation. I, being of higher skill in interpreting
English, believe your interpretations to be in error. And the facts over
the past ew years bear that out. I've never lost a policy complaint, have
you?

 MvdV>>>>> For one it tacitly assumes local calls are free.

 RW>>>> And they are.

 MvdV>>> In most parts of the US and Canada. In most other parts of the
 MvdV>>> world local calls are not free.

 RW>> So says you. Only in urope

 MvdV> It is spelled "Europe".

The C in Rap is silent, and so the E in urope is also silent and not
required to get my point across. As you've so shown by your attempt to
correct the spelling. Crap and Europe being of like in comparison.

 RW>> do they charge you for a long distance call across the street.

 MvdV> Only if that street marks a national boundery. A situation not
 MvdV> limited to Europw BTW.

Heh heh heh!

 RW>>>> It's been my experience that a host will require those sysops
 RW>>>> under it to fetch their own mail from the host or hub.

 MvdV>>> A requirement that is outside policy and therefore falls under
 MvdV>>> the header of a dictatorial decree.

 RW>> Wrong.

 MvdV> Right.

No. You're wrong.

 MvdV> P4 says that local policies may not impose additional restriction
 MvdV> on Sysops.

True.

 MvdV> A decree to poll the host or hub at regular intervals is such an
 MvdV> additional restriction.

Wrong. It's a requirement mandated by a *C to ensure the smooth running of
the network.  There is nothing in policy that restricts a *C from
implementing such a policy and there is nothing in policy that requires
the *C to 'deliver' mail to anybody. The only requirement is to 'make it
available'.

 RW>> Your interpretation isn't what P4 says,

 P4>> These local policies may not place additinal restrictions on members
 P4>> of FidoNet beyond those included in this document, other than
 P4>> enforcement of local mail periods.

 MvdV> Verbatum qoute from policy, no interpretation.

Right. No interpretation must be made of such a simple statement.

 RW>> nor what happens in reality.

 MvdV> There is a lot happening in reality that is in violation of P4.

Too bad the authors didn't think about it when they adopted it; they were
blind to the fact that technology would far surpass their unchangable
document and render it useless today. Had they allowed for an easy way to
change ti, made it a living document, Fidonet may not be on it's death
bed.

 MvdV>>>>> In Z2 local calls are *not* free and so it does matter who
 MvdV>>>>> calls who. That is just one example, there are many others.

 RW>>>> As I described it above.

 MvdV>>> Dictatorship....

 RW>> Wrong.

 MvdV> Right, A *C decreeing polls ate regular intervals is dictatorial.

But within Fidonet Policy.,

 MvdV>>>>> Actually in the past when FidoNet was run by the
technicians,
 MvdV>>>>> the *C's ever so often *did* know best.

 RW>>>> Ummmm, those were the dictators I pointed out above.

 MvdV>>> A dictatorship *can* be an effective way to run something. It
 MvdV>>> has proven to be the best way to run a ship...

 RW>> And urope.

 MvdV> And merika

Is that something like a mirkin used in the urallpeons courts?

 RW>>>> It is only lately that things have been freed up.

 MvdV>>> Unfortunately in most cases the dictatorships were replaced by
 MvdV>>> anarchie.

 RW>> Archie who? Oh, you meant anarchy...see what I mean about English
 RW>> skills?

 MvdV> No. I made a spelling error. So do you ever so often.

Not so ever often as you do...I usually overlook yours, but this one
required that it be brought to light.

 MvdV> Spelling and typing errors have no bearing on reading
 MvdV> comprehension. It it were so, you would have been disqualified long
 MvdV> ago.

LOL! You're so full of shit, your eyes are brown. Unusual for a Hollander,
accept for the likes of you. Fer instans, your miss interportacion, or lac
o won, o da 4QOM eekwashun...

PS - Correct my spelling. It'll be your only opportunity.

 MvdV>>> Which got us from the fire into the frying pan.

 RW>> But, we were already in the frying pan.

 MvdV> Whatever.

Perhaps you misinterpreted the phrase; "It's like jumping from the
frying pan into the fire"  Notice that jumping into the fire is slightly
worse than staying in the frying pan...an old cliche' used in English
speakiing circles that went right over your head. You of course, got it
backwards because that's how you think and speak in Dutch.

 RW>>>> I find the network is operating smoother than it has in the
 RW>>>> past.

 MvdV>>> Really?

 RW>> Yes.

 MvdV>>> It has become a free for all.

 RW>> How so?

 MvdV> See below.

 MvdV>>> The nodelist is a mess and does not reflect reality,

 RW>> Not many people these days pay much attention to the nodelist.

 MvdV> If that is true it is another sign of decay. The nodelist is the
 MvdV> glue that holds us together.

Only in your mind. The present nodelist does nothing for Fidonet, since it
isn't required to secure echomail from anybody else. Nor is it needed to
send or recieve netmail. So what makes it a catylist holding Fidonet
together?

 MvdV>>>  routing ever so often leads into a black hole,

 RW>> Due to the mess in the nodelist, no doubt.

 MvdV> Possibly. Or maybe the *Cs not doing their jobs.

More likely the cause is the inferior way it's done in your region.

 MvdV>>>  *Cs are asleep with their system on autopilot,

 RW>> I know two who have been asleep for years and yet their nets and
 RW>> regions don't miss them.

 MvdV> But the nodelist is a mess and routing ends up in black holes...

Only in Z2. I've received a lot of netmail in the past few weeks, none of
it went through my host.

 RW>> Ever wonder how it would be like to want to contact an RC with your
 RW>> modem and their phone number is not listed?

 MvdV> Another sign of decay... :-(

This one has been this way for years. As a NC, he didn't have a phone
listing and as the REC, he still didn't have a phone listing. Now, as the
RC he still doesn't have a phone listing. BTW, neither does his
predecessor who has taken over another region.

 RW>> Look up RC10 and RC15 sometime. I know RC10 is there because I
 RW>> Binked his node for two months before he finally passworded me out

 MvdV> RCs passwording out, Another sign of decay... :-(

This one was forseen years ago and still it happened.

 RW>> (I probably woke him up one day). RC15, well, I have a session
 RW>> password with her system, but I'll bet she doesn't know I'm still
 RW>> connecting there.

 MvdV> Your point?

She doesn't have a phone listing either. (former RC10) Not to mention that
the phone listing for her zone hub is answered by a telephone recording
stating that the number is no longer valid.

 MvdV>>>  universal connectivity is down the drain.

 RW>> We have nodes outside the planet?

 MvdV> You are asking my opinion?

Universal? Are there nodes on the moon? Are they listed in the nodelist?

 MvdV>>>  I think the network is on the verge of collaps.

 RW>> Not as long as there are two nodes passing mail.

 MvdV> Two nodes do not majke a network.

I wouldn't mention that to Tom Jennings.

 RW>>>> Nobody is enforcing ZMH, for instance.

 MvdV>>> And that, is not an improvement. Ignoring ZMH is detrimental to
 MvdV>>> connectivity IMNSHO.

 RW>> For an ION node, it isn't necessary.

 MvdV> What is the point of being in the nodelist if one is not on-line
 MvdV> during the agreed times?

Who said anything about not being on line? ION nodes are usually on line
24/7...

 RW>> That was proven by an RC when she declared that all RINs and NCs
 RW>> must connect with her system at least once a week, or be excommed
 RW>> from the nodelist.

 MvdV> That only proves the dictatorial aspirations of that RC.

See above.

 RW>>>>  Well, maybe in Z2.

 MvdV>>> Hardly. In the past NCs used to do regular checks to see if the
 MvdV>>> nodes were still on-line. Now many are afraid for what they
 MvdV>>> will find: black holes. So now they refrain from checking lest
 MvdV>>> they would have to strike half the nodes from their nodelist
 MvdV>>> segment....
 MvdV>>> :-(

 RW>> Ahh, so that's why the Z2 segment looks stuffed...

 MvdV> There is a difference between deliberately adding ghost nodes
 MvdV> (stuffing) and allowing dead wood to remain by neglect. It looks
 MvdV> negelcted.

I learned how to read them from Bob Kohl, who did a marvelous job of that
(stuffing).

 MvdV> Yes there is dead wood in the Z2 part of the nodelist. But there is
 MvdV> little reason to suspect the percentage is significantly higher
 MvdV> than in other zones. I would not be surprised if the dead wood in
 MvdV> the global nodelist is over 30%.

I read an article the other day outlining the places in the world where
pirated software is most often found. In the US and Canada, the percentage
was 21%, while in most of the western block that makes up urope, it was
30% and rising. Meanwhile, the eastern uropeon blocks were in the mid 20
percentile and accept for one stagnant country, going down. The honesty of
the eastern block of countries seems to be much better than that of the
western block. Thus, the dishonesty of the Z2C in listing dead nodes in
his zone is more likely than that of the rest of Fidonet.



Roy
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