DB> KK> DB>Schoenfield's 'The Passover Plot', and Pliny's letters to Trajan
DB> KK> DB>don't suggest much Roman malevolence so much as simply trying to
DB> KK> DB>keep public order.
Yeah, but for what reason?  Methinks your argument is like saying
that when we set up the Shah of Iran, it was an innocent urge to
keep public order.
I doubt that Pontius Pilot ever gave Jesus a
DB> KK> DB>second thought; as you suggest, rabble rousers were all over the
DB> KK> DB>place, as Pliny makes pretty clear.
DB> KK>
DB> KK> True, but that's exactly my point.  As was pointed out here recently,
DB> KK> the Romans were the supreme politicians of their time, and they
DB> KK> understood what a charismatic troublemaker could do in a land
DB> KK> seething with hatred for them.
DB>'Seeting with hatred'? I dunno Keith. The dead sea scrolls I read
DB>were full of invective for the sychophants and idolatrous masses,
DB>not in Rome or Macedon, but *Jerusalem*.
Typical of sects.  Nonetheless, my reading of all this was that
the Jews rankled under Roman occupation, especially when it came
to conflicts of Law, which is to say religious practice.  Your pal
Schoenfeld points out that if the Jews agreed on anything, it was
their resistance to the Romans.  The Romans were considered heathen scum.
This bunch of reclusive
DB>zealots hiding out in the bush were full of the same kind of self
DB>righteous bullshit you can see on the tube every sunday mouring.
Nothing unusual about that.  But as Schoenfeld points out, the one
thing the Jewish sects had in common was a common enemy.
In our own time, now that we no longer have Soviet commies to hate,
the Dems and Repubs are cheerfully trying to tear one another limb
from limb.
DB>Yeah, there was hatred all right, but most folks just got over it
DB>and got on with their lives.  And, of course, the zealots in that
DB>region still make life difficult for everyone else.
You forget that most folks had no choice.  That didn't mean they
liked it.
DB> KK> DB>Roman governors were literate and vain enough to seek notoriety.
DB> KK> DB>Had Pilot thought anything remarkable had happened in Jerusalem,
DB> KK> DB>he wouldda wrote a book; he was well enough known to get it sent
DB> KK> DB>around for serious consideration.
DB> KK>
DB> KK> I would restate this to say that the only significance Pilate saw
DB> KK> in Jesus was the crowds who followed him and could have become
DB> KK> an insurrection.
DB> KK>
DB> KK> DB>He did not bother to blame the Sanhedrin; Jesus wasn't important
DB> KK> DB>enough.
The Paulist account directly blames the Sanhedrin, with Pilate
wisely acceding to home rule.  Yet Jesus was arrested by Romans and
killed in the Roman manner, by Romans.
DB> KK>
DB> KK> I think the 'washing of hands' bit can be seen as political genius:
DB> KK> he gets rid of his potential insurrectionist, but presents himself
DB> KK> as refusing to interfere in local religious jurisdiction.
DB>Genius? I dunno. From Pliny, it looks like standard operations.
My point exactly.
DB> KK>
DB> KK> I think it's a separate issue that:
DB> KK>
DB> KK> DB>          That slander was concocted by Paul and the others so as
DB> KK> DB>to separate the Christians from the Jews, and make the new faith
DB> KK> DB>more agreeable to the sensibilities of a Roman power structure.
DB> KK>
DB> KK> Certainly, the NT was written much later, by people who had
DB> KK> long since split with the Jewish Christians, whose lives continued
DB> KK> at the pleasure of the Emperor, and who had no suicidal urge to
DB> KK> align themselves with a people who had been practically wiped out
DB> KK> by the Romans around 70 AD.  And it's possible that the 'washing
DB> KK> of hands' bit was a later invention.
DB>"Practically wiped out" is a later invention too Keith.  What the
DB>Claudian emperors did was to deport the upper classes; farmers or
DB>others who actually worked for a living were left alone, as you'd
DB>expect, since *they* were the ones who actually paid the taxes.
Okay, but I don't think that detracts from my point.
DB>Consider Titus' attack against Mesada, where 500 or so, Jews were
DB>*wiped* out by suicide.  Where were the *other* 3 million Jews? I
DB>think they were minding their own business.  As for Mesada, which
DB>became a big deal to the Jews, the Romans didn't want that nearly
DB>as much as Petra and the frankensence trade Mesada was on the way
DB>to... which BTW, they never got.
DB> KK> IIRC, the recently found Gospel of Thomas sez that Jesus was
DB> KK> done in by the Romans.  That doesn't 'prove' anything in the
DB> KK> scientific sense, but it's a source outside of Paulism.
DB>I too, would like to have a look at that.
Danged if I can remember where that was found.  Dead Sea Scrolls,
or was it that other major cache?  Nag Hammadi?  Here you see my
meticulous scholarship in action.
 * SLMR 2.1a * If crytography is outlawed bayl bhgynjf jvyy unir cevinpl
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