RM> It does this, but it also identifies "drift" in the process
 RM> of education so that we are aware if something changes.  
 RM> Only in this way can we adjust as needed.  The third thing
 RM> it does is to modify the behavior of the students, who are
 RM> not the passive and non-interactive entity Deming appears
 RM> to believe they are.  
CB>The drift will show if the test remains static, no?  Should 
CB>a test remain the same forever?  
If it serves the purpose for which it was created...
CB>If I have led you to believe that Deming assumes that students are 
CB>"empty vessels", (as our current system does), then I have 
CB>miscommunicated something somewhere.
Um.... Well, I don't think our current system accepts that
they're empty vessels, AND... From what you've said about
Deming's philosophy, it seems that the focus is entirely
that what WE as educators do, and what the educational
system does, ENTIRELY determines the outcome for students.
I simply don't agree with that, and I don't accept that
we can have much success unless the kids themselves change.
 RM> More and more, I'm coming to believe that Deming simply 
 RM> doesn't understand this, and subscribes to the "student as 
 RM> an empty vessel" philosophy of education.  Though you 
 RM> probably DON'T, you might consider the complete absence of 
 RM> any concern as to the students' point of view, beliefs, 
 RM> values, etc in Deming as raising a small red flag.
CB>Hmmmmm, since he stated the student is a customer and the 
CB>customer's needs must be answered within the system -- I am 
CB>not sure where you got this idea.  Maybe from some of my 
CB>late night ramblings? 
Heh... Must be ... Everything you've written focussed
only upon teachers and system, and totally disregarded
kids' attitudes, effort level, home environment, etc...
When I bought this out, you said Deming considers this
to be only 15% of the problem...  If I'm confused, then
I have you to thank ....
 RM> Perhaps he believes that the process can modify their
 RM> behavior, and, properly done, I think there may be some
 RM> validity in that - PROVIDED - the process include some
 RM> consequences for poor effort, and some rewards for 
 RM> excellence.  The "process" has to include acceptance to
 RM> college, good jobs for successful candidates, etc.  It must
 RM> also include steps to bring entering students to a level
 RM> where they can be successful.  If Deming is defining 
 RM> "process" in this way, then maybe there's something there.  
 RM> OTOH, if he considers, say, education through hs as the 
 RM> process, then my criticisms remain....
CB>I think that your definition of this process would be one 
CB>that he would agree with.  His focus is on making people 
CB>successful by getting rid of obstacles that interfere with 
CB>this "process".  
Including, presumeably, those they themselves construct by
their interaction (or NON-interaction ) with the process?
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 * MR/2 2.26 * "OS/2 is destined to be the most important OS" - Bill Gates
--- Maximus/2 3.01
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