basicallyblues  wrote:

> > Nothing to do with theology but scripture itself. Either you believe the
> > Bible contradicts itself or you realize that Enoch being
"taken" or
> > "transferred" does not mean he didn't die.
>
> >The fallacy of the false dilemma.  Those aren't the only two choices.
>
> They most certainly are chap. Either Enoch died or he did not.

Certainly.  But those weren't the choices you presented, namely:

1)  The Bible contradicts itself, or
2)  Enoch being "taken"... means he died [after untangling the double
negative].

In fact, both of the choices you presented are wrong.  The Bible does
not contradict itself and Enoch did not die (cf. Heb 11:5)

>
> >In the Greek, Jesus is saying that no one has ascended by their own
> >direct action and power
>
> not according to how the Greek word "anabaino" is used throughout
> scripture:

Really?  Let's see...

>
> Luke 19:28

And when he had thus spoken, he went before, "ascending up" to
Jerusalem.

Jesus, by His own power and direct action, walked up to Jerusalem.

> John 1:51

And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye
shall see heaven open, and the angels of God "ascending" and descending
upon the Son of man.

Are the angels using elevators or, like Jesus, are they travelling under
their own power?

> John 3:13

And no man hath "ascended up" to heaven, but he that came down from
heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Just as in Luke 19:28, where Jesus walked to Jerusalem by His own power
and direct action.

> John 20:17

Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my
Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my
Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Same usage as John 3:13

> Acts 2:34
> Acts 25:1
> Ephe 4:8,9,10
> Rev. 8:4
> Rev. 11:7,12
> Rev. 14:11

Same thing.

>
> in NONE of these verses do we see a clear usage of "anabaino" as you
> say. No disnction between ascending voluntarily or unvoluntarily.

That wasn't the distinction.  The distiinction is between ascending
directly via one's own power and action and being taken up.  Jesus
Himself "climbed" up into heaven; Enoch was taken up.

It's important to know how Greek verbs work.  They have tense (e.g.
past, present, future), and voice (active, passive, middle), as well as
gender and other attributes {note that this is not an exhaustive list.
There are other verb tenses and voices}.

In John 3:13, for example, the verb is in the active voice -- the object
is doing the acting.  In Heb 11:5, the verb has the passive voice -- the
object is being acted upon.  Two different concepts.

>
> > So if Enoch was not in heaven where was he?
>
> >The place of the righteous dead.
>
> and what's that?..where is it?
>

The Bible doesn't say.

> >Whatever the case the Bible says that nobody had gone to heaven
> > prior to 33 c.e.
>
> >The Bible says nothing of the kind.
>
> Sure it does. John 3:13.

Let's read it again putting the Greek verb tenses into English:

No one has ever, by their own action and power, ascended into heaven
except the one who, by His own action and power, descended from heaven.

What this verse clearly demonstrates is Jesus' majesty, power, and
ability.  It does not indicate that no one has ever been taken into
heaven.

[...]

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