Rod, at 08:45 on Apr 20 1996, you wrote to Bill Grimsley...

RS> I think a better workaround is to use an ATDT,, dialing prefix.

RS> I should have said suffix, mangled it a bit there.

Bugger me, an admission that you were wrong!  Will wonders never cease?  :)

BG> I've actually used a ModemTrans statement in Bink which automatically adds
BG> X3 to the dialling string of any calls which use STD, and as I only use
BG> Bink for polling for email, I almost never hear a busy signal. Might try
BG> the 2 commas though, as it appeared to solve the problem with my old Intel
BG> 400. My only reservation is that 4 seconds delay between answer and modem
BG> tone recognition may be too long, while 2 seconds may not be enough.

RS> Nope, all you need it to stop it listening to the line immediately
RS> after the called modem loops the line. The timing aint at all critical.

It was with the Intel.  The trick is to make sure that the delay is not so
long that it causes the modem to miss the first part of the remote's tones.

BG> I know that the comma time is configurable in the
BG> modem, but I just couldn't be bothered fucking about.

RS> It aint that critical.

Try 3 or 4 commas, and you might be surprised.

BG> Actually, it's just occurred to me that I can't use commas with Bink,
BG> as these need to go AFTER the phone number, not the dialling prefix. 

RS> Just put the commas in your NORMAL dial suffix. You are thinking
RS> about doing it with a ModemTrans, there aint any need to.

With manual dialling there's no problem, but I'm not sure if Bink allows an
AfterDial type command.  Have to check the bloody docs now, I suppose.

BG> Looks like I'm stuck with my current method,

RS> Nope.

Only if Bink allows it.  No problem with QMPro or LW/2 though.

BG> Yeah, I came to the same conclusion after checking Telstra's new
BG> rates too. Just as well I did, as I'd all but changed to Optus for
BG> STD at the time (I'd organised it by phone, but hadn't yet returned
BG> the official documentation).

RS> Yeah, with our sorts of calling patterns, there aint much in Optus
RS> for us. The main exception is weekends when the 10c is cheaper than
RS> the Telstra rate, even with a Smart Saver, but its only about 11c or
RS> 12c instead of the 10c Optus charges. And its even more complicated
RS> by the continuing specials most sundays of 9c before the Smart Saver
RS> with Telstra, giving 7.65c after the smart saver.

True, they're basically so close over say a normal week's use that there
really doesn't seem to be much advantage either way right now.  I'm a bit
concerned though that Telstra don't discount unless you spend a certain
amount on STD, and I have a horrible feeling that I may just miss out if
I'm not careful.

RS> Can get a bit tricky trying to use both too, say just Optus on weekends
RS> when Telstra isnt running their 9c that Sunday. If you dont watch out
RS> you can fall out of qualifying for the Smart Saver on dollars per month.

Any idea what that minimum limit is exactly?

BG> I think the easiest solution overall is to have the pips removed though.

RS> Dunno, they do have some superficial value in that in theory
RS> at least the people you call by voice may be less prepared
RS> to just answer the phone and put you on hold immediately.

ROFL!  That's what I used to think too, but it never seems to stop people
doing exactly that when I call STD. Pisses me off no end too, and I usually
tell them that I'm calling from BNE when they answer.  It helps
occasionally.

RS> Pretty good there. My only real reservation is the ATZ
RS> behaviour we have already discussed which I think is too
RS> much of a gotcha for no good reason, but other than that...

BG> As long as you're aware of that quirk, it isn't a problem at all.

RS> Cant agree with that,

BG> Why am I not surprised?  :)

RS> Coz you are a zealot who cant bring yourself to admit there is
RS> the slightest deficiency in anything that USR has ever done Bill |-)

Only problem with that comment is that I don't consider the USR's ATZ
behaviour to be a deficiency, only a quirk about which I'm very well aware.

RS> Tho I must admit that if you are gunna be a zealot about a particular
RS> modem, it makes a hell of a lot more sense to be a zealot about USRs.

Careful Rod, you'll end up being called a zealot yourself if you start
making comments like that.  :)

BG> As long as you and I know about it, what's the problem?

RS> Its VERY easy to forget in the heat of the moment as you
RS> are thrashing around trying to work out why a new mailer aint
RS> working etc. Human beings aint very reliable at always remembering
RS> where the mines are, you can step on one and blow you foot off.

Speak for yourself.  I have no problems with ANY of my computing gear.

BG> Would you refuse to buy a product because although YOU
BG> knew about it's quirks, some others didn't?  I think not.

RS> Pity that says sweet fuck all about whether it would be better if they
RS> did the ATZ command THE SAME WAY EVERYONE ELSE DOES Bill. Particularly
RS> when there isnt a SINGLE good reason to do it the way they do. Bad design.

We've already argued this point ad nauseam, so let's just agree to disagree.

RS> AND its not as if starting to do the ATZ the way everyone else
RS> does now would break anything ANYWAY, if people keep mindlessly
RS> AT&Wing after every port speed change, it will STILL work.

And if used as a dial-up modem only, it will NEVER bite the user.

RS> Zealotry Bill.

Nope, just enthusiasm for a good product, Rod.

RS> And get in the road of fancy auto setup of modems for stupids coz
RS> the auto config cant flick switches. And you shouldnt have to tell
RS> the stupid to change the switches to the standard config either. Mad.

BG> IYO.

RS> Fraid it aint just my opinion, its a basic of decent design.

Nope, it's your opinion of what constitutes good design, that's all.

BG> I'd sooner have them and not need them, then the other way around.

RS> You just cant bring yourself to admit that there is a single
RS> deficiency in anything USR does design wise Bill. Zealotry.

Probably because I can't think of anything in the USR which IS deficient,
when compared with your average Rockwell shitbox (ATZ notwithstanding).

BG> For Christ's sake, they're on the bottom of the modem,
BG> and shouldn't be subject to indiscriminate fiddling anyway.

RS> You know as well as I do that life aint like that.

No need to apologise for all the world's fuckwits Rod.

BG> And their functions are clearly listed in the docs as well,

RS> Which can be a considerable problem if they have vanished. Which is
RS> why it makes a HELL of a lot more sense to design the modem so it can
RS> always be communicated with with these funky AT commands which auto
RS> recognise the comm speed you are using, and the better modems even
RS> have help screens etc too. Leaves medieval DIP switches for dead Bill.

Pretty thin argument Rod.  But you're still entitled to your opinion, even
if it does happen to be wrong.  :)

BG> If other people are too stupid to use them, I sure don't give a fuck.

RS> You may well not, someone who understands what decent
RS> design is about may well be able to recognise that
RS> an important part of decent design is useability Bill.

Still apologising for the world's fuckwits, I see.

BG> So you say.  Funny that MY modem doesn't hash the line though.

RS> Yeah, yeah, its user error. Soorree, it aint. Maybe its my Supra
RS> and the USR is having a hissy fit at it or sumfin. Sure Bill.

Nope, I'm just telling you that my Sportster doesn't affect the line at all
when used in the manner you describe.  Perhaps it only happens with the
Couriers, or maybe the one you tried was faulty, I can't comment on that.

BG> It also makes it much easier to switch between voice and data calls,

RS> Nope, no difference at all in fact.

Makes a BIG difference when you consider the following...

BG> as there's no need to hang up the phone when you switch.

RS> Depends on whether the RJ11 on the modem for the phone
RS> is disconnected in data mode, some are, some aint.

ALL US/Canada USRs are switched, as was my Intel.  Part of the Austel
approval process involves disabling the switching of the auxiliary RJ-11
socket (as they did on the Austel USRs).

RS> Yeah, bit tempted to buy a Courier and do it myself,
RS> tell the Taiwanese I want them to mass produce the
RS> clone, and actually set them up to steal it |-)

BG> Pity that the code happens to be USR's intellectual property, isn't it?

RS> I dont give a damn, neither do you Bill, you are just shitty that anyone
RS> dares to mention the slightest wart in a USR modem. Mindless zealotry Bill.

What are you on about here?  The USR's code is indeed copyrighted, so you
can't just start mass-producing it without stealing it.  Not that I
personally give a stuff anyway.

BG> But go right ahead, and we can then organise
BG> "in-gaol" yaks to keep you company.  :)

RS> I cant go to jail if people buy a Taiwanese modem that the Taiwanese have
RS> churned out with a useable SDL and choose to load a USR SDL into it Bill.

You probably would if it was YOU who gave them USR's code to copy though.

Regards, Bill

--- Msgedsq/2 3.20