BG> It's JUST within Telstra's accepted limit of
BG> 7dB between sub and exchange, by only 1-2dB.

RS> You are still using the WRONG measure of a line, its NOT about the
RS> absolute signal level, tho that is certainly the measure that Telstra
RS> uses. Its all about bandwidth and S/N now, and those to even interact
RS> very considerably too, allowing Russ to get glorious sessions from
RS> FNQ to Daves immaculate line, even with audible S/N problems, because
RS> that is compensated for by an EXTREMELY flat and wide bandwidth curve.

RS> You really want to try graphing the ATY11 data, is a HELL of an eye
RS> opener and there is a VERY clear correlation between thruput and the
RS> shape of the curve and the S/N data if you understand the principles.

BG> I understand the principles just fine thanks,

RS> Nope, or you wouldnt have made that comment about the 1-2db being crucial.

BG> No, I said (or implied) that reducing
BG> the signal by 6dB is effectively halving it,

Pity that V34 doesnt give a damn and is DESIGNED to handle that,
and in fact DELIBERATELY reduces the level in some circumstances.

BG> and that with my poor lines, as little as 1-2dB can mean
BG> the difference between a successful 28800 connect and not.

Welp, thats crap as far as V34 is concerned, 1-2db doesnt matter a damn.
If it was just the 7db loss on your line, and that was constant across the
bandwidth, V34 wouldnt give a damn, PARTICULARLY the slightly worse loss of
1-2 db, it doesnt give give a damn. Its the rather pronounced SLOPE its got
and the S/N aint exactly terrific EITHER. Its THOSE, when there is a normal
line on the other end which produces the less than 33600 connects. And thats
what its SUPPOSED to do with less than perfect lines.

AND we were discussing the fucked handshaking, NOT the speed achieved too.

BG> I'm well aware that the S/N ratio is also a critical factor, but can't
BG> comment on mine because the Sportster's ROM doesn't tell me what it is.

Thats available on the bulldogs stats.

RS> Thats NOT the problem with your line, the problem is the pronounced slope.

BG> Poor bandwidth at high frequencies.  Yeah, I know that already.

Well, you sort of know it, and then proceeded to go on
about the 7db as if it mattered a damn, when it DOESNT.

RS> AND your db level clearly cant have anything to do
RS> with the atrocious handshaking problems you had if
RS> a rom change in the Sportster can fix them completely.

BG> Dunno, USR maintain that the code in the latest EPROM had been improved
BG> to the point that most people who weren't already seeing full-speed
BG> connects would be noting an increase of between 2400-4800 bps for those
BG> calls, and this is precisely what I found here once I'd fitted it.

You are comprehensively mangling together the SPEED ACHIEVED and the
gross handshaking problems. I was discussing the handshaking there.

AND the speed achieved certainly has been significantly improved,
BUT there isnt the slightest evidence that thats got anything to
do with your poor line, its just that the USR code has been improved.
Its just making better choices for the quite decent number of params
it can vary after its measured the session characteristics.

STILL nothing to do with your line being on the border of
Telstras 7db allowed. In fact US subs lines are quite often
worse than yours. And V34 was meant to be able to handle lines
that bad. And can now once the rom code has been improved.

BG> but the Sportster doesn't give a reading for
BG> the S/N ratio, which is a bit of a shame really.

RS> Yeah, particularly when its such a crucial factor with
RS> V34, particularly when the bandwidth isnt very good.

BG> Exactly, and I never suggested otherwise.

Your comment about being on the border with 7db is meaningless
tho, thats NOT a parameter that matters much with V34.

RS> Odd that Easter affected the fundys so badly. You do
RS> realise that Dave Hatch is some form of fundy dont you ?

BG> Oh really?  Tell me more...

RS> I think he might actually a sort of minister, but works as
RS> well. One of his BBSs was Ministry Support Group or close.

I now discover I have forgotten where I heard about his
fundy stuff. It wasnt just the BBS name, I can remember that.

BG> Of course, I remember that name now!  I never really thought about it thoug

RS> Presumably the bible basher/Jovey end of fundy but I dont know that.

BG> I'm glad you didn't say "harmless evangelist", or similar.

True, someone just recently said to me in email that the SDAa are
'much less weird, almost mainstream'. Dickhead never noticed that
the Koresh/Waco loons are actually a subsect of the SDAa.

BG> People who need an emotional crutch or a reason to justify
BG> their brief existence have always worried me a little.

Yeah, specially when they are as far out of their fucking trees
as Koresh. Even before the FBI frizzled the lot, those fucking loons
were actually shooting at each other, literally. A few years before.

BG> The Mormons are a real worry too, and if you've ever spoken
BG> at length to one of these crazies, or read any of their books,
BG> you'll understand why.  Dead set fucking weird, with a capital W.

True. Corse the other end are pretty fucking weird too, the
Bagwans lot and all those loons as well. Barking mad most of them.

Not that the earlier groups of loons like the Baptists etc are
much better. Some like Calvin himself were basically certifiable.
@EOT:

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