TIP: Click on subject to list as thread! ANSI
echo: nthelp
to: Adam Flinton
from: Rich
date: 2004-06-09 15:02:38
subject: Re: More Spin by Adam

From: "Rich" 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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   You didn't edit this one.  I was confusing your spining here with =
another thread.

   You did misrepresent me and you are still full of it.

Rich


  "Adam Flinton"  wrote in message =
news:40c75370{at}w3.nls.net...
  Rich wrote:

  >    So you are now arguing against your own claims in your previous=20
  > message in this thread.=20

  No I'm not. Where you posed a question I answered with a statement & I =

  pointed the obvious flaws in your statements.

  > You also misrepresent my simple position=20
  > by editing out portions of my message from your reply and put words =
in=20
  > my mouth that misrepresent what you removed.  How sad for you.

  I edited nothing out of your message. I did not remove anything. Not a =

  single word nor punctuation mark. Given your usual english =
comprehension=20
  problems I will quote your entire message so you can compare:

  "   Do you consider all products with a word in product name in common =

  to be a single product?  I'm surprised.  This means that all products=20
  with Linux in the name are one.  Your vulnerablity numbers would be=20
  through the roof.  Is that really how you want to spin things now?
  Rich"

  How sad you can not even understand or read your own messages let =
alone=20
  those of others. To then use that inabilty as the basis for your reply =

  is a humorous example of bathos.

  Adam

  > =20
  > Rich
  > =20
  >=20
  >     "Adam Flinton"      > wrote in message
  >     news:40c71d4f{at}w3.nls.net...
  >     Rich wrote:
  >=20
  >      >    Do you consider all products with a word in product name =
in
  >     common to
  >      > be a single product?
  >=20
  >     Gee MS obviously do coz it's an MS product, MS webpages, MS =
marketing
  >     etc. Are you really dissing MS to that extent?
  >=20
  >      > I'm surprised.  This means that all products with
  >      > Linux in the name are one.
  >=20
  >     You have in the past tried to claim products which don't have =
Linux in
  >     the name nor which are linux only applications (e.g. GAIM) as =
part of
  >     linux so please at least get your position straight & =
consistent.
  >=20
  >      >  Your vulnerablity numbers would be through
  >      > the roof.  Is that really how you want to spin things now?
  >      >
  >=20
  >     You are at the mercy of MS marketing. If they decide (like they =
did
  >     with
  >     IE & WMP) that something should be part of Windows & covered by =
the
  >     Windows moniker then the fault lies with them. As for vulns =
going
  >     through the roof, best get onto MS marketing as they've =
obviously
  >     decided that following the debacle of calling everything
".Net" =
now
  >     everything has to live under "Windows" not me.
  >=20
  >     Adam
  >=20
  >=20
  >      > Rich
  >      >=20
  >      >
  >      >     "Adam Flinton"      
  >      >     > wrote in message
  >      >     news:40c5bb5c$1{at}w3.nls.net...
  >      >     Rich wrote:
  >      >
  >      >      >    Adam's claim, at least what you claim is Adam's, is =
bogus.
  >      >     You want
  >      >      > to count redhat vulnerbilities you count everything in =
the
  >      >     product.  If
  >      >      > you want to compare this count of redhat =
vulnerabilities to
  >      >     something
  >      >      > else that is fine too.  If you want to use this =
comparison to
  >      >     support
  >      >      > some conclusion, well, you better be comparing counts =
of
  >     something
  >      >      > appropriate for the conclusion being made.  In the =
case of
  >     Russ, not
  >      >      > only were his numbers inaccurate, they were misleading =
and
  >     didn't
  >      >      > support his conclusion.
  >      >      >
  >      >
  >      >
  >      >     Rich, you're full of it. If you want to count
"windows" =
vulns
  >     then by
  >      >     your own reckoning you are at the mercy of not the tech
  >     people in MS
  >      >     but
  >      >     the marketing people e.g. hummmm let's have a look at =
say:
  >      >
  >      >     =
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsserver2003/sbs/default.mspx
  >      >
  >      >     or even:
  >      >
  >      >     http://www.microsoft.com/windowsserversystem/default.mspx
  >      >
  >      >     & gee guess what....there's lots of stuff which come =
under
  >     "Windows"
  >      >     e.g. the "Windows Small Business Server"
& the "Microsoft =
Windows
  >      >     Server
  >      >     System".
  >      >
  >      >     Would you like me to list what is included within =
"Windows"
  >     in those 2?
  >      >
  >      >     On the Windows Server system you can get:
  >      >
  >      >     "=95 Windows Server 2003
  >      >     =95 Application Center
  >      >     =95 BizTalk Server
  >      >     =95 Commerce Server
  >      >     =95 Content Management Server
  >      >     =95 Exchange Server
  >      >     =95 Host Integration Server
  >      >     =95 Identity Integration Server
  >      >     =95 ISA Server
  >      >     =95 Live Communications Server
  >      >     =95 Operations Manager
  >      >     =95 SharePoint Portal Server
  >      >     =95 Speech Server
  >      >     =95 SQL Server
  >      >     =95 Systems Management Server
  >      >     =95 Windows Small Business Server 2003
  >      >     =95 Windows Storage Server"
  >      >
  >      >
  >      >     & gee it looks like as part of the "Windows Small =
Business
  >     Server 2003"
  >      >     you get such "OS features" as SQLServer
& Exchange.
  >      >
  >      >
  >      >     Adam
  >      >
  >      >
  >      >      > Rich
  >      >      >
  >      >      >
  >      >      >     "Geo."      
  >      >     > wrote in message
  >      >      >     news:40c3b7f4{at}w3.nls.net...
  >      >      >     Adam claimed only the Linux kernel counted when =
counting
  >      >     vulns since
  >      >      >     embedded
  >      >      >     linux (or whatever it's called) was nothing more =
than
  >     that. You
  >      >      >     claimed that
  >      >      >     whatever was included in the distribution RedHat
  >     counted as a
  >      >     RedHat
  >      >      >     vuln.
  >      >      >
  >      >      >     Now I'm claiming that if MS included sendmail and =
bind
  >     in Windows
  >      >      >     2006, any
  >      >      >     sendmail or bind exploits would count as security
  >     issues thus
  >      >     making
  >      >      >     Windows
  >      >      >     2006 less secure than previous versions. It =
appeared
  >     to me you
  >      >      >     disagreed with
  >      >      >     that logic, do you?
  >      >      >
  >      >      >     Geo.
  >      >      >
  >      >      >     "Rich"  wrote in message =
news:40c3abe5{at}w3.nls.net...
  >      >      >        I have no idea what your "least common =
demoninator"
  >      >     approach is
  >      >      >     so I can't
  >      >      >     comment.  I never suggested anything with that =
name or
  >     to which I
  >      >      >     would apply
  >      >      >     that name.
  >      >      >
  >      >      >     Rich
  >      >      >
  >      >      >       "Geo."      
  >      >     > wrote in message
  >      >      >     news:40c389bf{at}w3.nls.net...
  >      >      >       "Rich"  wrote in message =
news:40c363bd{at}w3.nls.net...
  >      >      >       >>   Not when trying to make apples to apples
  >     comparisons
  >      >     such as
  >      >      >     claiming
  >      >      >     one
  >      >      >       version is more or less secure than another =
version.  If
  >      >     you just
  >      >      >     want to
  >      >      >     count
  >      >      >       things, and you can tell from this discussion =
there
  >     isn't
  >      >      >     agreement on what
  >      >      >     or
  >      >      >       how to count, then including bind and sendmail =
would
  >     result in
  >      >      >     more things to
  >      >      >       be counted.<<
  >      >      >
  >      >      >       I see, so saying that one version of Linux is =
more
  >     secure
  >      >     than another
  >      >      >     version
  >      >      >       of Linux must then take the least common =
denominator
  >      >     approach? I'm
  >      >      >     sure Adam
  >      >      >       will be overjoyed to hear you have finally come =
over
  >     to his
  >      >     line of
  >      >      >     reasoning.
  >      >      >
  >      >      >       Geo.
  >      >      >
  >      >      >
  >      >      >
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   You
didn't edit this =
one.  I was=20
confusing your spining here with another thread.
 
   You did
misrepresent me =
and you are=20
still full of it.
 
Rich
 
 

  "Adam Flinton" <adam_NO_{at}_SPAM_softfab.com=">mailto:adam_NO_{at}_SPAM_softfab.com">adam_NO_{at}_SPAM_softfab.com=
>=20
  wrote in message news:40c75370{at}w3.nls.net...Ri=
ch=20
  wrote:>    So you
are now arguing against =
your own=20
  claims in your previous > message in this thread.
No =
I'm not.=20
  Where you posed a question I answered with a statement & I =
pointed the=20
  obvious flaws in your statements.> You also
misrepresent my =
simple=20
  position > by editing out portions of my message from your =
reply and=20
  put words in > my mouth that misrepresent what you =
removed.  How=20
  sad for you.I edited nothing out of your message. I did not =
remove=20
  anything. Not a single word nor punctuation mark. Given your usual =
english=20
  comprehension problems I will quote your entire message so you can =

  compare:"   Do you consider
all products with a word =
in=20
  product name in common to be a single product?  I'm =
surprised. =20
  This means that all products with Linux in the name are one.  =
Your=20
  vulnerablity numbers would be through the roof.  Is that =
really how=20
  you want to spin things now?Rich"How
sad you can not even=20
  understand or read your own messages let alone those of others. To =
then=20
  use that inabilty as the basis for your reply is a humorous =
example of=20
  bathos.Adam> 
> Rich>  =
>=20
  >     "Adam
Flinton" <adam_NO_{at}_SPAM_softfab.com=">mailto:adam_NO_{at}_SPAM_softfab.com">adam_NO_{at}_SPAM_softfab.com=
>    =20
  <mailto:adam_NO_{at}_SPAM_softfab.=">mailto:adam_NO_{at}_SPAM_softfab.com">mailto:adam_NO_{at}_SPAM_softfab.=
com>>=20
  wrote in message>     news:40c71d4f{at}w3.nls.net...>=
    =20
  Rich wrote:>
>     =20
  >    Do you consider all products with
a word in =
product=20
  name in>     common=20
  to>     
> be a single =
product?>=20
  >     Gee MS
obviously do coz it's an MS =
product,=20
  MS webpages, MS
marketing>     etc.
Are you =
really=20
  dissing MS to that extent?> =
>      >=20
  I'm surprised.  This means that all products=20
  with>     
> Linux in the name are=20
  one.>
>     You have in the
past =
tried to=20
  claim products which don't have Linux =
in>     the=20
  name nor which are linux only applications (e.g. GAIM) as part=20
  of>     linux so
please at least get your =
position=20
  straight & consistent.> =
>     =20
  >  Your vulnerablity numbers would be=20
 
through>     
> the roof.  Is =
that=20
  really how you want to spin things =
now?>     =20
  >>
>     You are at the
mercy of =
MS=20
  marketing. If they decide (like they =
did>    =20
  with>     IE
& WMP) that something =
should be=20
  part of Windows & covered by
the>     =
Windows=20
  moniker then the fault lies with them. As for vulns=20
  going>     through
the roof, best get onto =
MS=20
  marketing as they've
obviously>     decided
=
that=20
  following the debacle of calling everything ".Net"=20
  now>     everything
has to live under =
"Windows" not=20
  me.>
>    
Adam> >=20
  >      >=20
  Rich>     
>=20
  >     =20
  >>      =
>     "Adam=20
  Flinton" <adam_NO_{at}_SPAM_softfab.com=">mailto:adam_NO_{at}_SPAM_softfab.com">adam_NO_{at}_SPAM_softfab.com=
>    =20
  <mailto:adam_NO_{at}_SPAM_softfab.=">mailto:adam_NO_{at}_SPAM_softfab.com">mailto:adam_NO_{at}_SPAM_softfab.=
com>>     =20
  >     <mailto:adam_NO_{at}_SPAM_softfab.=">mailto:adam_NO_{at}_SPAM_softfab.com">mailto:adam_NO_{at}_SPAM_softfab.=
com>>=20
  wrote in
message>     =20
  >     news:40c5bb5c$1{at}w3.nls.net...=
>     =20
  >     Rich =
wrote:>     =20
  >>      =
>     =20
  >    Adam's claim, at least what you claim is =
Adam's, is=20
  bogus.>      =
>     You=20
  want>      =
>     =20
  > to count redhat vulnerbilities you count everything in=20
  the>     
>     =

  product. 
If>     =20
  >      > you
want to compare this count =
of=20
  redhat vulnerabilities
to>     =20
  >     =
something>     =20
  >      > else
that is fine too.  =
If you=20
  want to use this comparison
to>     =20
  >     =
support>     =20
  >      > some
conclusion, well, you =
better be=20
  comparing counts of>    =20
  something>     =20
  >      >
appropriate for the conclusion =
being=20
  made.  In the case
of>     Russ,=20
  not>      =
>     =20
  > only were his numbers inaccurate, they were misleading=20
  and>    =20
  didn't>     =20
  >      > support his=20
  conclusion.>     =20
  >      =
>>     =20
  >>     =20
  >>      =
>     Rich,=20
  you're full of it. If you want to count "windows"=20
  vulns>     then=20
  by>     
>     =
your own=20
  reckoning you are at the mercy of not the =
tech>    =20
  people in MS>     =20
  >    
but>      =

  >     the marketing people
e.g. hummmm let's =
have a=20
  look at say:>     =20
  >>      =
>     http=">http://www.microsoft.com/windowsserver2003/sbs/default.mspx">http=
://www.microsoft.com/windowsserver2003/sbs/default.mspx> =
    =20
  >>      =
>     or=20
  even:>     =20
  >>      =
>     http:/" target="new">http:/=">http://www.microsoft.com/windowsserversystem/default.mspx">http:/=
/www.microsoft.com/windowsserversystem/default.mspx> &nbs=
p;   =20
  >>      =
>     &=20
  gee guess what....there's lots of stuff which come=20
  under>    =20
 
"Windows">     
=
>    =20
  e.g. the "Windows Small Business Server" & the "Microsoft=20
  Windows>      =
>    =20
  Server>      =
>    =20
 
System".>     =20
  >>      =
>     Would=20
  you like me to list what is included within=20
 
"Windows">    
in those=20
  2?>     =20
  >>      =
>     On the=20
  Windows Server system you can =
get:>     =20
  >>      =
>     "=95=20
  Windows Server
2003>     =20
  >     =95 Application=20
  Center>      =
>     =95=20
  BizTalk
Server>     =20
  >     =95 Commerce=20
  Server>      =
>     =95=20
  Content Management
Server>     =20
  >     =95 Exchange=20
  Server>      =
>     =95=20
  Host Integration
Server>     =20
  >     =95 Identity Integration=20
  Server>      =
>     =95=20
  ISA Server>      =
>    =20
  =95 Live Communications
Server>     =20
  >     =95 Operations=20
  Manager>      =
>     =95=20
  SharePoint Portal
Server>     =20
  >     =95 Speech=20
  Server>      =
>     =95=20
  SQL Server>      =
>    =20
  =95 Systems Management
Server>     =20
  >     =95 Windows Small
Business Server=20
  2003>      =
>     =95=20
  Windows Storage
Server">     =20
  >>     =20
  >>      =
>     &=20
  gee it looks like as part of the "Windows Small=20
  Business>     Server=20
  2003">      =
>     you=20
  get such "OS features" as SQLServer &=20
  Exchange.>     =20
  >>     =20
  >>      =
>    =20
  Adam>     =20
  >>     =20
  >>      =
>     =20
  >
Rich>     =20
  >      =
>>     =20
  >      =
>>     =20
  >     
>     "Geo." =
<georger{at}nls.net">mailto:georger{at}nls.net">georger{at}nls.net
<mailto:georger{at}nls.net>>&nb=">mailto:georger{at}nls.net">mailto:georger{at}nls.net>>&nb=
sp;   =20
  <mailto:georger{at}nls.net>>&nb=">mailto:georger{at}nls.net">mailto:georger{at}nls.net>>&nb=
sp;    =20
  >     <mailto:georger{at}nls.net>>">mailto:georger{at}nls.net">mailto:georger{at}nls.net>>
=
wrote in=20
  message>     =20
  >     
>     news:40c3b7f4{at}w3.nls.net...>=
     =20
  >     
>     Adam =
claimed=20
  only the Linux kernel counted when=20
  counting>      =
>    =20
  vulns since>     =20
  >     
>    =20
  embedded>     =20
  >     
>     linux =
(or=20
  whatever it's called) was nothing more =
than>    =20
  that. You>     =20
  >     
>     =
claimed=20
  that>      =
>     =20
  >     whatever was included in
the distribution =

  RedHat>     counted as=20
  a>     
>    =20
  RedHat>     =20
  >     
>    =20
  vuln.>      =
>     =20
  >>      =
>     =20
  >     Now I'm claiming that if
MS included =
sendmail and=20
  bind>     in=20
  Windows>     =20
  >     
>     2006,=20
  any>      =
>     =20
  >     sendmail or bind
exploits would count as=20
  security>     issues=20
  thus>      =
>    =20
  making>     =20
  >     
>    =20
  Windows>     =20
  >     
>     2006 =
less=20
  secure than previous versions. It =
appeared>     to=20
  me you>     =20
  >     
>     =
disagreed=20
  with>      =
>     =20
  >     that logic, do=20
  you?>      =
>     =20
  >>      =
>     =20
  >     =
Geo.>     =20
  >      =
>>     =20
  >     
>     "Rich" =

  <{at}> wrote in message news:40c3abe5{at}w3.nls.net...>=
     =20
  >     =20
 
>       
I have no idea what =
your "least=20
  common
demoninator">     =20
  >     approach =
is>     =20
  >     
>     so I=20
  can't>      =
>     =20
  >     comment.  I
never suggested anything =
with=20
  that name or>     to which=20
  I>      =
>     =20
  >     would =
apply>     =20
  >     
>     that=20
  name.>      =
>     =20
  >>      =
>     =20
  >     =
Rich>     =20
  >      =
>>     =20
  >      =
>      =20
  "Geo." <georger{at}nls.net">mailto:georger{at}nls.net">georger{at}nls.net =
<mailto:georger{at}nls.net>>&nb=">mailto:georger{at}nls.net">mailto:georger{at}nls.net>>&nb=
sp;   =20
  <mailto:georger{at}nls.net>>&nb=">mailto:georger{at}nls.net">mailto:georger{at}nls.net>>&nb=
sp;    =20
  >     <mailto:georger{at}nls.net>>">mailto:georger{at}nls.net">mailto:georger{at}nls.net>>
=
wrote in=20
  message>     =20
  >     
>     news:40c389bf{at}w3.nls.net...>=
     =20
  >      =
>      =20
  "Rich" <{at}> wrote in message news:40c363bd{at}w3.nls.net...>=
     =20
  >      =
>      =20
  >>   Not when trying to make apples to=20
  apples>    =20
  comparisons>      =
>    =20
  such as>     =20
  >     
>    =20
  claiming>     =20
  >     
>    =20
  one>      =
>     =20
  >      
version is more or less =
secure than=20
  another version. 
If>     =20
  >     you =
just>     =20
  >     
>     want=20
  to>      =
>     =20
  >     =
count>     =20
  >      =
>      =20
  things, and you can tell from this discussion=20
  there>    =20
  isn't>      =
>     =20
  >     agreement on=20
  what>      =
>     =20
  >    
or>     =20
  >      =
>      =20
  how to count, then including bind and sendmail=20
  would>     result=20
  in>      =
>     =20
  >     more things=20
  to>      =
>     =20
  >       be=20
 
counted.<<>     =20
  >      =
>>     =20
  >      =
>       I=20
  see, so saying that one version of Linux is=20
  more>    =20
  secure>      =
>     than=20
  another>     =20
  >     
>    =20
  version>     =20
  >      =
>       of=20
  Linux must then take the least common=20
  denominator>      =
>    =20
  approach?
I'm>     =20
  >     
>     sure=20
  Adam>      =
>     =20
  >       will
be overjoyed to hear you =
have=20
  finally come over>     to=20
  his>     
>     =
line=20
  of>      =
>     =20
  >     =
reasoning.>     =20
  >      =
>>     =20
  >      =
>      =20
  Geo.>      =
>     =20
  >>      =
>     =20
  >>      =
>     =20
>

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