On (21 Nov 02) Alex Shakhaylo wrote to Frank Vest...

Hello Alex,

 AS>  AS>> Policy may be changed at any moment by sysops' referenda. We
 AS> need  AS>> to run just one time networkwide referenda which approves
 AS>  AS>> proportional mechanism and then we may change policy annually if
 AS>  AS>> you like.

 FV> This has been tried before.

 FV> The ability of such a referenda is only as effective as the number of
 FV> people that agree to be bound by it.

 FV> There are other problems to overcome as well. The Sysops have the
 FV> power in numbers, but the *Cs control the Nodelist. Until this changes
 FV> and each Sysop can control the Nodelist, that is the way it is.

 FV> To do what it appears you desire would require at least 50% of the
 FV> 9000+ Nodes in Fidonet to vote in favor. That would be somewhere
 FV> between 4500 and 5000 Nodes.

 AS> I think the number of votes doesn't really matter. Publicity does
 AS> matter. We have to be sure at least every NC is aware of the
 AS> procedure.

And if the NCs do not agree to the referenda? Not only the NCs, but
all of the *Cs. They control the Nodelist. Many are voted into office,
but many are not. Some will agree and some will not.

Those that do not agree can refuse to accept the new policy change.
They can then enforce P4 to the max and cause a split in Fidonet that
could very well end the Network as we know it. Zone 1 has had splits
in the Nodelist by those that do not accept P4, those the do accept P4
and those the accept parts of P4. Alternate nodelists have been
created. Each claiming to be /THE/ Fidonet Nodelist based on their
beliefs. It's a nasty situation to be in. IMHO, better to make small
changes and work towards the ultimate goal than to try to do a
complete replacement.

 FV> You make this sound so simple. Let me ask the following:

 FV> 1. How do you propose to inform all of the Sysops (Nodes) of this
 FV>    referenda?

 AS> By informing their NCs. NCs should be informed by netmail.

And you might find that many of the NCs are missing in action or just
ignore the Netmail.

When I was Fidonews Editor, I sent out a proposal to change the
Fidonews section of P4. I sent a Netmail to Ward and carbon copied it
to every RC in Fidonet. I got about half a dozen replies. :(

 FV>  A. How will you be sure that all Nodes have been informed of the
 FV>     referenda?

 AS> No way to be sure. But when a president election happens nobody is
 AS> sure all the citizens are informed.

True, but that election, and many such elections are regular in date
and time. Most (I'd say all) people know that on "X" date there will
be such an election.

 FV> 2. How will the vote be taken?

 FV>  B. By Netmail?

 AS> Yes, by netmail.

Lots of bulk Netmail to be sent. I hear the complaints of "annoying"
already.

 FV> 3. Who will count the votes?

 AS> RO and VO. May be RO and 2 VO, it can be discussed.

Yes, it can be discussed. Most likely, it will be a fight with
accusations that will live forever to thrown in the face of people as
desired. :(

 FV> You see, it is not so simple. :-)

 AS> Yep, I see, but I think it is still possible :-)

Ok. Go for it.

I think it is possible to change P4. I just want to be careful in
doing it. No need to start something that will be a thorn in the side
of Fidonet forever.

FWIW, I'm writing a "proposal" myself. It's basically a re-write of P4
that includes Echomail and removes a lot of the junk from P4. It also
will be more organized than P4 ever was. Maybe it will see the light
some day. Who knows. :-)


Frank

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/flv
http://biseonline.com/r19

--- PPoint 3.01