SH> i'm afraid it really is necessary for the us to be reacting
SH> in the way they are and i just wish the politicians here had
SH> the guts to as you put it over react.

BM> The unsavourary example of over-reaction I had in mind was California's
BM> recent law excluding illegal immigrants from schools, hospitals etc.

I dont see whats so 'unsavory' about that. Whats so 'savory'
about the government providing tax payer funded services to people
flagrantly breaking the law ? We dont ourselves. Good thing too IMO.

Why should I be paying for people who chose to flout our immigration laws ?

SH> because enough is enough, we are a nation of 17 million
SH> with a social security budget of tens of billions of
SH> dollars, someone please try and justify that one...

BM> I agree that the social security budget is over-bloated.  But contrary
BM> to popular myth that is not because of dead-beats and bludgers

Quite a bit of it is. I actually know one fellow who is 34, with a
wife and two kids, who has never worked a day in his life, and who
brags about only ever having paid $2.50 in income tax ever in his
entire life. I have known him now for something like 20 years, and
thats right thru the times when there was no unemployment problem.
He is not alone, tho more flagrant than most. He isnt even the only
one I know personally either.

BM> - it is due to respectable middle and high income earners dipping
BM> into the till.

Nope, otherwise you wouldnt see the amount the government spends on
welfare surge up during recession.

BM> That is you and me, Sam.

Some of it is, particularly the child type payments.

BM> Millions of people like us are part of the problem, especially the
BM> post WW2 baby boom generation. Why should medicare be free to all
BM> comers, including for cosmetic surgery?  Why should everyone get
BM> child allowances, regardless of income?  Why should the Manangatang
BM> Art Appreciation Society get a government grant?  And on it goes.

Yes, but the later isnt part of the social welfare vote.

BM> Unfortunately, Western society places too much emphasis on rights
BM> and not enough on responsibilities.

Yes, but then much of asian society just doesnt bother with these
new fangled social safety nets and if you dont have any safety net
of your own when you need one, thats just too bad.

BM> Hence we get all these pressures for governments to solve every
BM> social problem, many of which were once family responsibilities.

True. But do you really want to return to the old approach of you
providing for you aged parents entirely if they have no income ?

BM> The best way to control costs is to means test
BM> everything and to introduce user pays wherever possible.

True, and cut out the silly stuff where money is raised in taxes
from most people, pumped thru the bureaucracy where quite a bit
evaporates, and churned back to the same people who paid it in
with stuff like most of the child payments to taxpayers.

Corse you could argue thats always been true with 'free'
education too. Cant see the school education being done
on a simple user pays any time soon tho.

BM> Bulk billing is one of the great rorts of out time.

In some ways. OTOH I have my doubts that too many people have say
operations just coz they are totally free. I spose some would on
cosmetic stuff, but its not free anyway OTW. And its hard to know what
to do about say gross buck teeth or ears like a VW with the doors open.

BM> How many people go to the doc for every sniffle, because it is
"free"?

It would be interesting to know actually. I doubt too many, but I may
be wrong. I think the biggest problem with bulk billing is a different
one, its far far too easy for the blood sucking commercial practices to
just churn thru too many visits and too many tests for the income. Ask
people to come back for a return visit more frequently than they need.

It would also be interesting to know just how much gets wasted on insane
stuff like requiring a certificate for time off work or stuff like the
usual lunacy of a referral when it makes no sense to bother with one.

BM> I read somewhere that 60% of all ailments will cure themselves
BM> without medical intervention.

True, I guess rather more do visit coz its completely free
when they have a real problem that doesnt really need a visit.

BM> Of the remainder, medical intervention fixes 20% and makes 20% worse.

Thats not so much those bulk billed GP visits tho.

I doubt too many get a hip replacement for the lie in in bed etc.

--- PQWK202