BM> Button was another good one.  He did a great job sorting out our
BM> cossetted vehicle industry and our country owes him a big vote of
BM> thanks.  Plus he is a decent, honourable and self-effacing person.

GC> Well Bob its good to see someone have good words to say about polies
GC> form either side that try do do the right thing.  Too many times we
GC> get party politics before whats the right thing for the country/state.

I think the other important thing to realise is that at times there can
be not that much between them too. In many ways in the federal sphere
thats the very real problem the coalition has, labor has largely done
what they would have done themselves, and so they are stuffed, the only
thing they can do is be rather radical, and that scares the electorate.

The only major area federal labor is that different is pandering to
the unions, but even then, Hawke kicked the shit out of the airline
pilots when that was required.

Its no where near so true of state labor governments tho. OTOH some
like Goss arent exactly a pack of bleeding heart basket weavers either.

BM> The dilemma of democracy is how to resolve the conflicting demands
BM> of many groups - all claiming to know what is the right thing for
BM> the country.

Yes, but I think that quite a bit of the time you also have to realise
that it really doesnt make all that much difference who is in power
too. Its hard to really say that the Hawke government is really all that
different to the Fraser government on the basic stuff. In fact labor has
been in some was a lot more willing to privatise and deregulate. Fraser
mostly just waffled and did bugger all on most major policy stuff. And
spouted high ideals, and wimped out severely when he thought he might be
about to lose and did precisely what he insisted was bad policy. Which is
precisely what it was too towards the end.

BM> At the moment I think most Western countries are self-indulgently allowing
BM> everyone to get his hand in the till - and to expect this as a right.

I dont. I think what we are seeing, particularly in the US, is the
voters saying 'this aint very good, do something'. Corse they are seeing
what we have seen, a massive shift away from employment in manufacture as
the workers their have largely priced themselves out of the market and
their jobs are being exported to asia where many countrys are only just
moving from agriculture to secondary industry now, what we did decades ago.

The world is changing, many of the voters in first world countrys
dont like it much. But a lot of it is an illusion too. If you compare
the percentage of the adult working age workforce working today with
say the 50s or 60s, its much higher now. We just called them married
women who chose not to work then, we call them unemployed today.

And we could eliminate the current levels of unemployment if the work
currently being done on overtime was done by those out of work too.

BM> We all seem to want pristine forests,

Yes, as living standards increase, and the have vastly, people arent so
prepared to sacrifice that sort of stuff to economic growth. Corse they
dont have the spectre of the Great Depression to look back on either.

BM> social workers prying in our lounge windows,

I'm not convinced on this one. In the past wowsers had far far more
power. And even mindless thought police stuff on say communists. Let alone
the whole hippy stuff. Society is much more tolerant today in many ways.

BM> child support, native rights, teachers who are de facto parents etc etc.

True. But much of that is an inevitable result of increasing
affluence and most of the adults in the household working.

BM> The pendulum has swung too far towards expecting governments
BM> to mollycoddle everyone.

True. The handout mentality is certainly rife. Very visible with
people expecting as a right free adult ed type stuff, particularly
for women and those out of work.

BM> The Scandinavian countries are the extreme cases.

Yes, and often winding back as the cost is realised.

BM> There are some signs of change in the US, but they seem to be
BM> over-reacting the other way.

They always have tho. Its always been a society with far more dramatic
swings than we have. We never saw the Red Brigades and Simbionese
Liberation Armys and stuff either. Or the race riots with whole city
blocks put to the torch. Or anything like the adoption of the religious
fundamentalism in the rabid sense either. They are just like that.

--- PQWK202