CB>Hmmm, so there is a list of the "best" courses? Just wondering.
 RM> Sure you are.... Let's see if I can find a word you'll like
 RM> better... How about challenging?
Shouldn't all courses be challenging?
 
CB>Why don't we make sure that the majority can pass this test?
 RM> And how, pray, do we do this if we don't check to see if the
 RM> goal is reached, or what effect various educational changes 
 RM> may have on the outcome?  After all, we have established no
 RM> baseline from which to reference....
Why wait for graduation time, shouldn't this quality be built into the system 
before the student gets to testing time.
You are talking about quality graduates, I am talking about quality 
ducation.
A quality education will insure quality graduates.
 RM> I'm afraid you're not going to convince me that a Deming 
 RM> company does no quality checking.  If they didn't, then 
 RM> they're allowing their customers to do it for them (which 
 RM> is not a particularly good idea, imo).  
 RM> All mechanical devices; robots, etc, "drift" in their 
 RM> settings; either from wear and tear, or during maintainence 
 RM> cycles.  If the company doesn't track the output, they
 RM> cannot detect this "drift", and before long you're out of 
 RM> spec.  If you're telling me that Deming companies do not do 
 RM> this type of check, I'm sorry, but I simply don't believe
 RM> it...  Modern companies track their process statistically,
 RM> sampling here and there (not everything).  If 7 successive
 RM> samplings are out of range, then the process is out of
 RM> control.  One doesn't mess with the process, however, if
 RM> 1 or 2 samples are out of range, as this can be attributed 
 RM> to statistical variability.  Now, if you prefer to sample
 RM> randomly among students, I guess I can buy that point of 
 RM> view, but the question remains as to whether the principles
 RM> of manufacture hold for people and social development.  I'm
 RM> not sure they do, and I've seen nothing from you that would
 RM> constitute evidence to the contrary....
Deming does discuss variation quite a bit, and he was a master of dealing 
with statistics.  The book I have been quoting from discusses what you have 
mentioned above.  Common causes of variation in educational processes are 
discussed as well as ways of reducing them.  All of this is presented in a 
way that is well related to the education situation.  Uses of scientific 
methods to chart variations and to determine whether there are special causes 
of variation is one of the beginnings of this quality process.
Although you say that I can't convince you that Deming's methods will work 
for schools because schools and manafacturing processes are quite 
different---you are working in a system modeled after the typical industrial 
age factory.  Every student you receive has been through this "factory" to 
get to you in high school.  If you are pleased with that, then I probably am 
wasting my time continuing this thread.
--- Maximus 2.02
---------------