GC> I endorse your comments Phil,  its a bit like the
GC> old age pension, (not that I'm that old yet) but.....

RS> Its nothing like the old age pension. AND society has decided
RS> that it makes no sense to be paying an old age pension to people
RS> who have enough assets etc to provide for themselves too.

GC> A Govt decided to means test old age pensions, so that more welfare
GC> could be given to those who haven't saved anything for themselves.  

Nope, the rationale for means testing pensions its that it makes
absolutely no sense whatever to be paying a pension to those who
are say millionaire etc. Quite mad to be taxing the tax payer to
get that cash to pay that cash to a millionaire. And ditto for
others down from a millionaire too.

GC> You appear to be supportive of those that don't save anything.

Nope, I support paying pensions to those who dont have any income
etc. I see no sense whatever in paying a pension to someone who has
say super which provides and adequate income.

Yes, the unfortunate side effect of that is that those who choose
to thru their life save absolutely nothing and say spend it on the
pokies or whatever, are indeed those who get the pension. But that
problem is there with any welfare payment, it does indeed reward
those who choose to or dont for any reason, attempt to provide for
themselves. But its unaffordable to just pay everyone the old age
pension regardless of their wealth, pay everyone a dole regardless
of whether they are working or not etc etc.

GC> X & Y start work at age 18, both earn $30,000yr & work until
GC> age 65, both have basic super, but X also invests $5000 yr
GC> buying house/shares etc. but Y saves nothing extra but spends
GC> the $5000 on beer etc. so at age 65 the Govt says to X you cant
GC> get the pension because you've got too much assets/money because
GC> you saved some money when you worked, BUT to Y they give a full
GC> pension plus other benefits like some rent assistance etc....

RS> Yes, but thats true of any welfare system. You can also say that
RS> someone who chooses to save/invest/whatever when working can get
RS> themselves into the situation where they dont qualify for the dole
RS> if they get say retrenched. There is no answer for that stuff.

GC> Some sort of work should be performed to get the dole therefore
GC> the system should be open to all who dont have a job, not just
GC> the those who haven't any savings.

Still doesnt fix the problem. If someone say saves and invests when
working and so has a decent saving which they can use to live off
while looking for work when retrenched, they dont need the dole, and
dont need to be made to work of it either. You still have a problem
that those who do make provision for the inevitable occasional change
of job for themselves have a disincentive to do that compared with
those who dont give a stuff and expect the state to support them as
required. Again, the indigent are rewarded with state support for
not attempting to look after themselves. Say those who spend on grog
what they would otherwise have saved for the inevitable change of job.

RS> In the context of Phils original question about handouts for
RS> starting a small business, the only rational case from your
RS> position is that everyone who starts a small business should
RS> be entitled to government handout when they do. That makes no
RS> sense whatever and isnt affordable anyway.

GC> No I'm not in favour of Govt (taxpayer) handouts.

But you are with the pension. Its just another Govt (taxpayer) handout
to those who have not made any provision for their old age themselves.

And you said right at the top 'I endorse your comments Phil'.
He said he wanted a handout to start a small business.

GC> What a system.....rewarding Y with a pension etc. for pissing
GC> his money up against the wall and not saving some for the future.

RS> Yes, but thats an inevitable outcome with any welfare or assistance
RS> scheme. It necessarily assists mostly those who have not managed to
RS> provide for themselves for whatever reason. Thats life, better get
RS> used to it, no one has invented an alternative. The last attempt at
RS> an alternative, communism, has just gone down the tubes in grand
RS> style. And the less dramatic attempts like cradle to grave socialism
RS> which was tried in western europe quite a bit is being wound back
RS> fast as they are sick of paying the fantastic cost in taxes.

GC> No I don't believe that we have to put up with the current welfare
GC> system, the old age pension, single parent pension and the dole can
GC> all be improved.

I dont believe its an improvement to say pay pensions to people who dont
need the pension because they have made adequate provision for their old
age themselves. I think it makes a hell of a lot of sense to only pay the
pension to those who wouldnt have an adequate income without it.

GC> Hopefully a change in the federal govt will make some of the
GC> changes needed.

You do realise that they are in favor of continuing the means test on
pensions ?

GC> I am one of the ones sick of paying taxes.

Which is part of why we dont pay pensions to those who have made adequate
provision for their old age. Coz taxes would have to be higher if we paid
pensions to everyone regardless of their circumstances.

--- PQWK202