Bob Sewell on "Creationism [1/2]                                        [1]" 
with Mark Bloss...
 MB>>  I hold this belief because the absence of a creator in a universe as
 MB>>  well put together as this one, is unacceptable to me.
 BS>     Not to mention illogical.  Occam's Razor cuts toward the existence
 BS>  of a creator god, in my mind.  But barely.
Is it illogical or are we just not equipped with the logic to understand it?
In order to make a statement like "the Universe is too well made for there 
not to have been a creator" implies that the person making the statement 
assumes they have all the answers.
 MB>>  RT>> Indeed. If as you say your god is so honest then why is it so
 MB>> elusive  RT>> and totally unevidenced?
 MB>>  Because it takes faith to believe in Him, and to evidence Himself
 MB>> would  mean that God somehow must prove Himself, so that I would then
 MB>> not need  faith to believe in Him.
 BS>     But I evidence myself all the time before people I live with, work
 BS>  with or otherwise interact with on a daily basis, but I don't do it
 BS>  because I must prove myself.  Why is God different?
Does anyone dispute your existence Bob? And if they do can they be shown to 
be wrong?
Now apply that to god.
 MB>> If He proved Himself so that faith is not
 MB>>  required to believe in Him, then His purpose for me is diminished, ie,
 MB>> I do not develop faith, which is an attribute _of_ God.
 BS>     If faith is an attribute of God, what does God need with faith?
 BS>  What would He possibly need to have faith _in_?
So that he can parse humans into hell or heaven.
 RT>> Please provide evidence of your god.
 MB>>  I just did.  He exists because it would be impossible for my limited
 MB>>  imagination to understand a universe _without_ God.
 BS>     You probably meant to say that "You believe He exists because...,"
 BS>  right?  God's existence/nonexistence does not hinge upon the strength
 BS>  of anyone's imagination, but you knew that, I'll bet.
On the contrary. There is no evidence that god is anything but in people's 
imaginations. Mark's plea that it impossible for him to understand a universe 
without god is a plea from ignorance.
    Relatif Tuinn
... "Bother," said Pooh, as he heard, "Will the Defendant please rise."
--- Spot 1.3a #1413
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