* Originally By: amcgowen@hposl02.cup.hp.com
 * Originally Re: Re: preaching to the converted
 * Original Area: Internet Mail
 * Forwarded by : Blue Wave v2.12
To: ECOLOGICAL ECONOMICS 
> 
>  Eric Fellinger    writes:
I (Alan McGowen) wrote this.
> 
> The idea that economic growth can occur without corresponding growth of
> anything physical is a metaphysical dogma of neoclassical economics.  
> 
> In this view, a holdover of the religious belief that only humans have
> immortal 
> souls, "value" is created by mental acts of humans, which are nonphysical
> -- hence there is no reason why "value" cannot grow without physical limit.
> 
> This naive value theory has been thoroughly exploded by environmental
> ethicists
At this point, Albus elided the links that I provided. Again, they are
>This naive value theory has been thoroughly exploded by environmental
>ethicists; see, for a recent online example: J. Baird Callicott, Intrinsic 
>Value in Nature: a Metaethical Analysis, from The Electronic Journal of
>Analytic Philosophy. The web address is 
>
>http://www.phil.indiana.edu/ejap/1995.spring/callicott.abs.html
>
>The entire Spring issue, called "Justifying Value in Nature" is interesting.
>It is at http://www.phil.indiana.edu/ejap/1995.spring/contents.html
I had written:
>If nature rather than the metaphysics of the human will is the primary 
ource
>of value, the idea that value can grow without limit becomes a claim about
>the operation of nature -- a claim which clearly flies in the face of 
evidence
>for ecological limits. Conversely, the theory that value can grow without
limit
>because it is an anthropogenic domain, autonomous from nature, rests on the 
>view that humans are somehow external to nature, an exemptionist doctrine 
that
>flies in the face of our evolutionary derivation and biological 
nstitution.
> Albus replies:
> 
> What does it mean for nature to be the primary source of value?  
I mean systemic value sensu Ralston. See the above Callicott reference, 
and Rolson, Holmes, III (1994). Conserving Natural Value. New York: 
Columbia University Press.   
> What in
> nature assigns value?  Do rocks or clouds have value in themselves?  Value 
to
> whom?  Value to what?
The ecol-econ list is not about environmental ethics. Evidently Albus is 
unfamiliar with the concept of intrinsic value. Since intrinsic value is
one the ethical postulates Michael Soule cited for conservation biology
in his famous BioSciences article defining the field ten years ago, I 
gather Albus is not exactly in touch with currents in ecological thought.
I'm not sure bandwidth should be spent in ecol-econ rehashing such basic
information about the issues.
> Value implies benefit, or cost of something to someone. Value implies
> something that can choose what is valuable and what is not.   Value implies
> that someone or something CARES.  Does a rock care about the chemical
> composition of the atmosphere?  What is of value to a cloud?  Does nature
> care about global warming?
Value does not require the ability to "care" or to "choose" -- that is neural 
chauvanism. It may be true that biological intrinsic value requires the 
possibility of conferring fitness, but this does not require that either 
the fitness conferrer or conferree have "minds".
> Only a mind cares about anything.  Only a mind can decide what is valuable
> and what is not.  Therefore, all value derives from the mind.  Value is not
> something that has meaning outside of a mind which cares about things, and
> assigns value to things.
This is simply a declaration of faith in the very tenets environmental
ethicists have exploded.
> Value exists in the mind, not the brain.  Value does not derive from the
> physical world.  It derives from the mental.
Value requires biological function, not brains or "minds". In fact, brains
evolved for the purpose of *tracking* value: they have been selected by
natural value for hundreds of millions of years. They are only one of many 
adaptations evolution has created for getting at value.
> It remains an open question as to whether value can increase without limit,
> even in the mental world.  But this issue does not depend on arguments 
bout
> the physical constraints of the planet Earth.
Biological function is constrained by limits, and value arises as a result
of function.
> Jim Albus
> http://members.aol.com/jsalbus/
> 
Alan McGowen
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