KR> pure communism, and pure democracy are very similar, and
 KR> neither work in anything bigger than a commune.

 BL>   No... that's true of communism, but a democracy can be quite large
 BL> as long as people are fairly homogenous; as long as most think the
 BL> same and have similar goals, and are mostly interchangeable.

name a pure democracy, capitalism is not the same thing.

 BL>   Capitalism only works on a large scale; communism only works on a
 BL> small scale.

 KR> probably the most successful communist systems are the kibbutz
 KR> (sp) in israel. what the larger experiments have ended up with
 KR> is totalitarianism not communism.

 BL>   Yes. Communism has to be imposed. It ignores human greed, and the
 BL> universal belief that we are better than everyone else. To me, the
 BL> true opposites are not communism and capitalism, but bureaucracy v.
 BL> individual enterprise.

not really, communism runs ok in small communities where everybody has
concern for the welfare of all, the abbos seemed to get along ok like that
until we civilised them.

 KR> the chinese probably came closer than most, but it all came
 KR> unglued when those in charge either went batty (the cultural
 KR> revolution) or saw the chance to do themselves a lot of good at
 KR> the expense of those who they were supposed to protect.

 BL>   The problem of communism is that it denies the role of women. Men
 BL> alone will go fishing and drinking and rooting and no one gives a
 BL> shit. It it the role of women to nag men to work and become rich and
 BL> famous. Poor old Lenin did not understand this. Mrs Lenin was a dud 
 BL> root.
 
thats odd the russians seemed to push the role of women in their society
with pictures of 20 stone tractor driving heroines of the soviet union,
 
 KR> the problem that the chinese leadership has now is the rise of
 KR> the middle class, and that historically has been the downfall
 KR> of despotic systems. 

 BL>   Only if the bureaucracy is small. Under communism, the middle class
 BL> *is* the bureaucracy.

i should have said an independent middle class, coz that is what is growing
up in china, not completely beholden to the party, and, as time goes by
they will become even more independent, and demanding.

 BL> I can see China splitting in three but I can't see the
 BL> bureaucracy letting go, not while they control capitalism
 BL> through licensing, corrupt practises, and such.

 KR> i dont know how many pieces, but several chinese friends
 KR> predict it's happening. did you know that there is a
 KR> significant reverse migration going on with young
 KR> chinese/australians seeing much more oppportunity in hong
 KR> kong/china than here over the next few years. 

 BL>   It's not exactly *reverse* migration. What they do, is move the
 BL> family (and the money) to Australia, get free Australian citizenship
 BL> and put the kids in private schools, dump the wife in a nice property
 BL> in Sydney, and then take the money and themself back to China and the
 BL> girlfriend. Australian-citizenship is the parachute.

not a few of these are australian born.

 BL>   But you are right about opportunity - 10% growth coupled to
 BL> Universal corruption is a beauty. 

 BL> I think in 20 more years we may be saying that Macarthur could
 BL> have stopped it. 

 KR> macarthur would have been flattened if the chinese had put
 KR> their whole force on him. 

 BL>   And then he would have used the Bomb. He saw a window of opportunity
 BL> for the USA to rule Asia. He was a fuckit. The USA shut the window
 BL> years earlier when it supported Chiang Kai Chek instead of Mao. The 
 BL> Dulles brothers have a lot to answer for. China was never the enemy...

he may have tried, but his masters would not have let him. the us miltary
has always had it's share of gung ho loonies such as curtis lemay, but they
are usually kept reasonably in check.

                                       keith
@EOT:

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