KR> pure communism, and pure democracy are very similar,
KR> and neither work in anything bigger than a commune.

And communism doesnt even really work there either.

KR> probably the most successful communist
KR> systems are the kibbutz (sp) in israel.

You do realise that almost none of those still exist dont you ? They
never really worked all that well, tho they were certainly less of a
catastrophe than some of the attempts that did call themselves communism.

And real communism isnt just about that small scale stuff, its claimed
to be suitable for entire states, with the 'withering away of the state'
etc and there was never the slightest prospect that that would work.

KR> what the larger experiments have ended
KR> up with is totalitarianism not communism.

Yes, it never stood a chance on that scale in the classical Marxian sense.

KR> communism runs ok in small communities where
KR> everybody has concern for the welfare of all,

It doesnt actually, they have been surprisingly short lived.

The closest we ever got to ones that lasted any time were the religious
monasterys etc. And even those are now imploding at an amazing rate with
almost no one interested in getting involved in them anymore. Presumably
they only worked in the past because they were a haven from the turmoil
outside for some people, nothing to do with viable communism at all really.

KR> the abbos seemed to get along ok like that until we civilised them.

Nope, they didnt do anything remotely like 'got along ok', in
fact used some quite bizarre levels of violence and extreme social
control. The 'quite well' is just the usual silly noble savage stuff.

KR> the chinese probably came closer than most,

Like hell they did, they just didnt do as badly as the mindless banditry
and turmoil that preceded it, and it eventually all came totally unstuck
FAR more spectacularly than any of the previous emperors themselves did,
with what was essentially yet another emperor, Mao. Fuck all to do with
real communism, everything to do with rule by one person, not even benign.

They essentially just aped the trivia and
werent anything remotely like communism.

KR> but it all came unglued when those in charge either went batty
KR> (the cultural revolution) or saw the chance to do themselves a lot
KR> of good at the expense of those who they were supposed to protect.

Or it was just another emperor, with the usual problem
those have always had, some interesting approaches in some
areas, mostly managing to fuck it up completely eventually.

The reason the alternative actually works is that it ISNT at
the whim of the massive brain farts by a particular person.

KR> the problem that the chinese leadership has now is the rise of the middle
KR> class, and that historically has been the downfall of despotic systems.

BL> Only if the bureaucracy is small. Under
BL> communism, the middle class *is* the bureaucracy.

KR> i should have said an independent middle class, coz that is what is
KR> growing up in china, not completely beholden to the party, and, as
KR> time goes by they will become even more independent, and demanding.

Its distinctly arguable if they actually are the middle class at all,
there is a real sense in which their problem ISNT the middle class,
its a return of the very rich who are nothing like the middle class.
@EOT:

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