In article , Jim McGinn
 wrote:

> jimmcginn{at}yahoo.com (Jim McGinn) wrote 
> 
> > > > Would you agree that objectivity implies objects, matter, and 
> > > > entities that are measureable or potentially measureable (if 
> > > > sometimes only in principle) and/or forces that are measureable 
> > > > or potentially measureable?  
> 
> > > > Causation, therefore, can be simply defined as forces that are 
> > > > produced by entities.  Do you agree?
> 
> > > > Effectuation, therefore, involves forces produced by causative 
> > > > entities that change the position of the effected entity and/or 
> > > > that changes the arrangement of particles that comprise an 
> > > > effected entity?  Do you agree?
> 
> Josh, I think we're, mostly, in agreement with what I quoted 
> above (I snipped liberally for emphasis).  Now the big 
> questions:
> 
> Is chance an entity?
> 
> Is randomness an entity?
> 
> Is drift an entity? 
> 
> If the answer to these questions is no then, in the light of 
> what I quoted above, what do you think of the common practice 
> of refering to chance, randomness, and drift as being causal?

Within the framework set up above, I'd say no.

A supporting line of analysis: Is gravity an entity? If not, if it is
the process of causation (as above: [a] force that is produced by an
entity), what is the entity which produces that force?

And if gravity is the force, not the entity, can we say that drift is a
force, but not an entity, and therefore a process of causation but not
the agent producing the process?


This may seem like "just semantics" -- and man, I HATE that phrase;
semantic descriptions are critically important and not to be derogated
with "just" -- but it is, of course, the nub of the problem. If
"drift"
is a description of a process, but not a causative agent, it can't be
said to "cause" evolution, or even a part of evolution. It is the
engine that CAUSES the car to go, not the process of combustion, in
this framework, right? The effectuation of the car moving is the
combustion produced by the engine (and the fuel elements, which are not
given any particular status in this framework); the engine is the
causative agent.

Or are we disagreeing on this?

-josh
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