-=> Quoting Mike Angwin to Robert Craft <=-
 MA> A choice to starve and live in a perpetual state of
 MA> poverty, or to take risks, struggle against seemingly
 MA> unsurmountable odds, and do all that can be done to have a
 MA> better life. 
 
 RC>Irrelevant to the point: it is *his* choice.
 MA> 
 MA> I recognize it is a choice.  I simply cannot criticize a man
 MA> for making the same choice I would, the same choice our own ancestors
 MA> themselves made, faced with the same set of circumstances.
 Mike, my ancestors came to this country in legally, and made their
 lives as law abiding citizens. In this they differ in two important
 ways from those you are referring to: 1, they entered this country in
 accordance with our law and 2, they came with the purpose of becoming
 citizens. Most of those who enter this country illegally, not only
 break the law by their very presence in this Country, but also show no
 sign of loyalty to this country. In contrast I would like you to
 consider the case of one Austrian Family who came to this country
 during WWII. The Von Trapp family came(legally) as refugees from the
 tyranny of Adolph Hitler, and even though they were not yet US citizens,
 two of their sons served in WWII as American soldiers. IOW the Von
 Trapps were willing to lay the lives of their sons on the line for this
 country, from what I hear, few of today's illegal immigrants would do
 the same.
 MA> No not brought in in chains, just as fleeing slaves did not
 MA> flee to free states in chains, but, like we once captured
 MA> fleeing slaves, chained them, and forced them back into the
 MA> chains of slavery, we are now capturing those fleeing
 MA> hopelessness, chaining them, and forcing them back into the
 MA> chains of hopelessness.
 
 RC>Nice hyperbole, but irrelevant to the facts.
 MA> 
 MA> Is it?  Are my words inaccurate or merely inconvienent?
 I would say that you are comparing apples and oranges.
 MA> In both cases, those seeking hope and liberty, followed the
 MA> nothern star in hopes of realizing their dreams. In both
 MA> cases, those who wrap themselves in unjust and inhumane
 MA> law, armed and deadly, stand in their way. 
 
 RC>Again, more hyperbole. The liberality and openness of US
 RC>immigration policies are exceeded by very few countries. 
 MA> 
 MA> For northern europeans, possibly, but for others I will contest
 MA> your position.  We were, at one time, as Jefferson described if, an
 MA> island of liberty in a sea of servitude where all who love liberty may
 MA> seek refuge, but no more.  Our immigration policy is now extremely
 MA> restrictive and not even close to being one of the world's more open
 MA> systems.
 Please give examples of countries who have more open immigration
 policies.
 MA> Unless, for example, you are a professional with specific
 MA> skills, an immediate family member of an American citizen, or marry an
 MA> American, there is no means by which most Latin Americans can ever
 MA> come to the United States legally.  The idea, widely held, that all
 MA> that needs be done is apply and wait is a myth.  Unless you are among
 MA> these limited few, and even then the wait can be over a decade, there
 MA> is not even a waiting list.  No means is available.
 MA> The same person, however, can, of they choose, immigrate to over
 MA> a hundred other nations by one means or another.  
 John Sampson, would you please comment?
 MA> The United States is one of, if not the most, restrictive
 MA> nation in the world on immigration.  Very few others guard their
 MA> borders with armed patrols using sensors and night vision to hunt down
 MA> civilians. If you really believe we are an open nation you need to look
 MA> a bit harder at the system you are defending.  Such a belief is
 MA> ill-founded. 
 In a sense you are correct, there are still  countries who guard
 their borders to prevent their citizens from leaving!
 MA> We are a people who have a long and distinguished history of
 MA> disobedience of unjust laws.  In fact, we honor those who struggled
 MA> against injustice as our most sacred national heros.  Jefferson and
 MA> Washington and Franklin and all the founders of this Republic defied
 MA> the law in it's very birth.  Lincoln defied the law to preserve it.
 MA> King defied the law to brings the benifits of liberty to all
 MA> Americans. There is no shame in defiance of injustice.  Defiance of
 MA> injustice, in this nation, is as much a responsibility of each citizen
 MA> as casting a vote.
 I have yet to be convinced that our immigration laws are unjust.
 MA> As for preferrring to flee rather than fight, such a
 MA> statement disavowes the honor of our own ancestors.    Yes, they did
 MA> flee tyrrany rather than oppose it at home to enjoy the fruits of
 MA> liberty, but once those fruits were found resolute defense of it's
 MA> preservation has never been an issue.   If you question, in particular,
 MA> the resolve of Hispanic immigrants and their offspring to defend the
 MA> liberty of this nation you need only look at the list of those who have
 MA> one this nation's highest award, the Medal of Honor.  In a totally
 MA> disproportional number to any other ethnic group, Hispanics have
 MA> verified their commitment to liberty with unmatched courage.
 Mike, no one is disputing the courage and loyalty of Hispanic people,
 rather we are objecting to those who disregard our law in order to
 come to our country.
 david.hartung@mcione.com
 Ilks of Metropolitan Walls/LENS
 Proud member of White House Enemies database
... To see God, look into the eyes of a baby.
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