John Edser wrote:

> 
> PR:-
> True.  But it currently comes up short in the human nature
> department.  
> 
> JE:-
> Please provide one specific example we
> can base this discussion around.
> 

1. Hillary's climbing of Mt. Everest.

   "Its not about the mountain.  Its about what the
     mountain tells you about yourself" (Edmund Hillary)

2. Suicide being the second leading cause of death among
    teenagers.  Especially troubling since they have not
    yet reached their reproductive prime.

3. The warm emotional response most of us have to the moral
    maxim:

      'Love your neighbor as you love yourself'.


> JE:-
> Can't you imagine a situation where an 
> adaptation just fails, or even produces
> a massive loss in fitness? My argument 
> is that 9/11 is just such a case.
> 

Since most species have gone extinct I would think imagination
wouldn't be much necessary for this one.

> 
> JE:-
> If we were "a little too objective for
> our own good" then I would not have
> to argue against everybody here, 
> that just making a relative benefit increase
> at an absolute cost is NOT a benefit
> to ANYBODY, even the "winner".
> 

You're confusing cognitive objectivity with valuative objectivity.
The former is likely to be adaptive, the latter, which forms
the basis for morality, is maladpative, at least to the extent
that our formal models of natural selection carry any wait
(e.g., Smith's notion of ESS).


> 
> PR:-
> But its not what others think of us that is the real motive
> behind what we do.  Its WHAT WE THINK OF OURSELVES that
> lies at the core of our mental health. 
> 
> JE:-
> I formally put it to you that you
> don't know which was causative. How
> would you test your proposition,
> above? 

Its "the best explanation" for why humans have been observed
to sacrifice their social status simply to "do the right
thing" on numerous occasions (Michael Moor's little speel
at the academy awards).

Are you saying that you yourself would never
consider abandoning your public image to simply 'do the
right thing'?  Is that why you question it in others?

> You firstly have to separate out 
> the view that what we think of ourselves
> is entirely dependent on how others 
> view us. We are a social species!
> 

Which makes occasions of diliberate social suicide all
the more enigmatic, don't you agree?


PR
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