"Stephen Harris"  wrote 

>  JM:
> > I agree.  It seems we are in agreement that chance
> > is not causal.  Right?  Do you therefore retract
> > your claim that chance is or can be causal?
> >
> SH:
> I'll answer that later.
> 
> JM:
> > The output of the geiger counter is generated by the
> > mechanics therein.  Not by chance, right?
> >
> 
> Not by chance per se, but chance is the adjective
> that describes the lack of pattern to the clicks.

Exactly.

> "by chance" is an prepositional phrase functioning 
> as an adjective

Now we're getting somewhere.

> 
> > > The phrase "generated by chance" never refers to
> > > chance as a device or an entity
> >
> > Right.  I think we're in agreement on this point.
> > Now you have to explain to me how something that is
> > not an entity can produce causation.  Good luck.
> >
> 
> I claim causality produces an observable phenomenon
> which can in some cases be described as random or
> a matter of chance.

I don't think anybody would dispute this statement.  
But surely you realize that causal forces eminate from 
entities, they don't just appear.  Right?

> > As we established above, chance refers to a lack
> > of specified criteria on the part of the causal
> > entity.  But chance is not an entity.  So chance
> > is not causal. (Note: chance is an adjective, not
> > a noun or a verb.)
> >
> 
> I will provide a dictionary definition from American Heritage
> Dictionary: noun, 1.a "The unknown and unpredictable
> element in happenings that seems to have no attributable cause."

Yes, and the reason it, "seems to have no attributable 
cause," is because of our inability or unwillingness to 
measure the factors that cause it.  Not because we know 
it has no cause.  Right?

> 
> Flipping a coin is a physical event, a "happening". That event
> is governed by the law of cause and effect. Chance applies
> to whether there is a relationship between a series of coin
> flips. I have said that each coin flip is a causal event. I have
> said the relationship in a series of events which qualify as
> chance events is random or non-deterministic. If there is
> a pattern it means it is predictable and is called deterministic.

If we can discern a pattern we can, more or less, 
predict it.  If we are unable to discern pattern 
then we cannot.  Chance indicates our inability to 
discern a pattern.  Nothing more.

> The definition has two parts or conditions: happenings and
> no attributable cause. It is "no attributable cause" which
> makes it a matter of chance.

Surely you realize there is a difference between having, 
"no attributable cause" and having no cause.  Right?

> Saying chance is non-deterministic
> allows the happening to be causal but with no causal links
> between the events.

I think you meant to say, "no *known* causal links," 
rather than, "no causal links."



> I mean to point out that chance events do not occur 
> without causality though the focus is on the relationship 
> of the events to each other. This distinction has some 
> importance.

I agree.  The distinction involves our ability/inability to 
measure/predict.  As I've been saying all along.



> Not all situations are so easy to figurer out as coin 
> tossing. For instance do you know whether the path of 
> a pendulum would generate deterministic or perhaps 
> unpredictable results?

I think it will be relative.  IOW, some phenomena will 
tend to be more predictable than other phenomena.  



It seems we are, finally, in agreement.  So now I can 
assume that you don't dispute my contention that the 
phenomena that has been labelled genetic drift is nothing 
more than a part of natural selection that is difficult 
or impossible to measure/predict.  Right?  So now when 
other people tell you that genetic drift represents a 
form of causation distinct from natural selection you 
are going to tell them they are full of crap.  Right?  
Because, like myself, you now realize that, like I just 
stated, "genetic drift" is nothing more than a part of 
natural selection that is difficult or impossible to 
measure/predict.  Right?  



Jim
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