William Morse  wrote 

> > > JMcG:-
> > > It's silly to suggest that "chance" can be causal.  
> > > For example, you can employ statistics to better 
> > > predict when a baseball player will hit a home run.  
> > > But does chance hit the ball over the fence?  
> > > No, the baseball player does.
> > 
> > JF:-
> > In which case, what does he say about Brownian motion 
> > or Mendelian segregation?  Thermal noise?
> > 
> > JE:-
> > None of the above are being supposed to
> > be _entirely_ i.e. alone, causative to a
> > proposed, testable, scientific process 
> > such as evolution.
> 
> Brownian motion is not a testable scientific process? 

First of all it's not a process, it's a phenomena. 

[moderator's argh: ARGH! It is most definitely NOT a
"phenomena"; it is, if one accepts your argument, a
phenomenon. - JAH]

The causation that is produced by "brownian motion," is too 
small to be measured to a degree of certainty that us 
humans are comfortable with.  Some people interpret this... 


[moderator's note: This seems to me to be absurd; Brown
himself dropped flecks of cork into water and observed
the cork being buffeted about by an unknown force; are we
then to define the cork's movement as "without causation"
simply because that movement is a result of random statistical
mechanics? - JAH]


....in a manner that I consider to be a quasi-spiritualistic:
that this inability to measure somehow demonstrates 
the existence of randomness (stochasticity) as a force of 
nature, like gravity or electromagnetism.  I chose not to 
interpret "brownian motion," as a force of nature.  As I 
see it the unpredictablity of "brownian motion" is a very 
predictable consequence of the fact that the phenomena is 
too small to measure, as indicated by the Heisenberg 
Uncertainty Principle (HUP).  

In accordance with HUP, the supposition that this phenomena 
represents a force of nature, as Joe contends, or that it 
is nothing more than an inescapable consequence of the 
limits of measurement, as I contend, can never be proven 
one way or another.  I think this is what John is saying.

> Mendelian segregation (probably the best argument against 
> "gene centrism") is not random?

It depends what you mean by random.  If you consider 
randomness a force of nature, similar to gravity or 
electromagnetism, then IMO the answer is no.  Mendelian 
segregation is not random (IMO nothing is).  However if 
you consider mendelian segregation to be a predictable 
consequence of the very real limits in our ability to 
measure biological phenomena then the answer IMO is yes.  

> All us engineers can safely start ignoring thermal noise 
> in our designs because  it's not causative? 

Thermal noise is a phenomena.  The entities it refers to 
are causative.  So as an engineer you would be derelict 
of duty if you ignored this phenomena in your designs.  
Chance, unlike thermal noise, is not a phenomena.  Chance 
is a consequence of our inablity to measure aspects of 
reality to 100% certainty.  Chance is not causative.   
Chance is a concept.  Concepts are not causative.  Only 
entities are causative.  

> And we could include entropy in Dr. Felsenstein's list, 
> since that is also (well according to Boltzmann, but 
> what did he know?) due to chance. 

It depends how one interprets the phrase, "due to chance."  
Since I consider chance to be a concept and not a force of 
nature the supposition that anything can be, "due to 
chance," is a nonsense statement.  Again, "chance" IMO 
doesn't hit home runs.  Baseball players do.  

> Now I suppose you will tell us that entropy is not a 
> testable scientific process?

Entropy is testable.  But the supposition that it is, 
"due to chance," is untestable unless one first specifies 
whether they consider chance to be a force of nature or a 
consequence of our inability to measure reality to 100% 
certainty.  

What it really comes down to is that people believe what 
they want to believe.

Jim
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