Mark Bloss discussing "Creationism"
with me...
 MB>>  But I do believe this whole universe was created by the one God - only
 RT>> On what do you base this belief?
 MB>  Faith.
On what do you base your faith?
 MB> And why do you ask?  And why is that important?  And what's
 MB> your point?
The reason I ask is because I don't believe that this Universe was created by 
god, or that a god of any shape or form exists. So, I'm interested to hear 
why you hold this belief and what the basis for this belief is.
 MB>>  I don't believe he _lies_ about the age of the earth, anymore than He
 MB>>  would lie about whether or not it's raining outside.  If you see it 
 MB>>  raining, then it is raining - and if you see fossilized dinosaur
 MB>> bones, then the earth is several billion years old.
 RT>> Indeed. If as you say your god is so honest then why is it so elusive
 RT>> and totally unevidenced? 
 MB>  
 MB>  Because that's the way we are made. We are made believers. Anyone
 MB> who
 MB>  says he isn't a believer, believes he isn't a believer, and therefore
 MB>  is a believer.
This is what someone else said. I didn't agree with him either. The reason I 
don't agree is because, as you state, one can only have a belief in something 
that does not have evidence to support it. If one disagree's with that belief 
then one is a non-believer and does not have to offer any evidence to support 
his position whilst the opposing stance has never produced any evidence of 
any form to support their position.
 MB> That's the way we are made.  If we are made that way -
 MB>  then the creator of us made us that way.  If he made us that way, he
 MB>  made us that way because that's the way he is.  If he is that way,
 MB> then
 MB>  evidencing himself would be contradictory.  Therefore God is elusive
 MB> and
 MB>  totally unevidenced because it takes faith to believe in God, and if
 MB> one
 MB>  does not have faith to believe it, then you have nothing.  And since
 MB> we
 MB>  are believers in one thing or another, with or without evidence, then
 MB>  we believe because of our faith in something we can't see.
This tells me that you can never have evidence of god because he will not 
allow it. If that is correct then what am I to conclude about all the people 
who have claimed to have confirmation from god of his existence?
 MB> If you do
 MB>  not believe there is a God, then you have faith in something you can't
 MB>  see: the proof of his non-existence.
Likewise, if you DO believe there is a god, then you have faith in something 
that you can never see, or have confirmation from, by definition. You have no 
proof of his existence and by your statements above you never can.
Please provide evidence of your god.
 RT>> What is its purpose for us if it has one, and why has it not made this
 RT>> purpose known to us so that we can give it our full attention?  I don't
 RT>> see much honesty in your god either.
 MB>  His purpose is self-evident to those who believe.
 MB>  And He has made His
 MB>  purpose known to us so that we can give it our full attention.
I assume, that because you are a believer, it is self-evident to you what 
gods purpose is? Maybe you'd like to explain what his purpose is so that we 
can judge for ourselves.
 MB>  But -
 MB>  unless you are listening to Him, how can you say He is a liar?
Up above you state that belief in god must be unevidenced for it to be 
belief. This, as you state above, is how god made it. Now you're saying that 
there are somehow people around who are able to listen to god. How is this 
possible if god, by his own demands, will never show any sign of himself?
 MB>  His purpose is known to us in the fossils and in the nucleus of the
 MB>  atom, it is known to us in our DNA, and in our water, and in the
 MB>  velocity of light.  How can you say nature itself lies?
First of all you must provide evidence that your god created nature before 
you can argue that the existence of nature is proof of gods existence. Can 
you?
 MB>  If it rains,
 MB>  do you say the sky is deceitful because it must be sunny instead?
 MB>  If gravity keeps the heaviest elements below us, and the lighter
 MB>  ones above us, do you say gravity is lying?  No, gravity tells the
 MB>  truth, it is honest, and its purpose is understood.  God made it that
 MB>  way.
Provide evidence that god made it that way.
    Relatif Tuinn
... Assembler Command: HTC: Halt and Toss Cookies
--- Spot 1.3a #1413
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