Guy Hoelzer  wrote 

> > It is quite logical to assert that the mechanism of genetic drift
> > which can be called chaotic causation happened first but was
> > discovered later. 

Irrelevant.  Nobody, certainly not myself, is basing 
their/my argument on the order of discovery.  Moreover, 
before you said the mechanism of GD was chance or 
sampling error.  Now you are saying it is chaotic 
causation.  Which is it?  Choose one and stick with it.

> > How could the mechanism of natural selection
> > take action without chaotic causation?

It couldn't, as Darwin described.  (But he employed the 
word random instead of chaotic.)

> > It is reasonable to conclude
> > that genetic drift is the logical parent of natural selection.

No.  This is a nonsense statement.  In a scientific 
argument in which we are attempthing to discern the 
validity of the assertion that GD exists as a force 
or process separate from NS it is nonsense to base 
your argument on the assertion that GD exists.  

> > And that
> > the idea that chaotic confusion as a concept should be subsumed
> > under the natural selection concept

(I think you mean chaotic causation, not confusion.)  
Assuming I'm interpreting your terminology accurately, 
Darwin is the one that proposed this.  Do you dispute it?

> > because natural selection was
> > postulated first is as unreasonable as postulating that relativity theory
> > should be subsumed under classical theory because it was discovered
> > first. 

Why are you bringing this up.  Nobody, certainly not 
myself, is basing their/my argument on the order of 
discovery.  So I don't know where you are getting this.

> > It isn't. The idea of self-organization arising from chaos meaning
> > that self-organization should be considered the parent concept of
> > chaos doesn't make sense to me.

I can't make any sense of it either.  (Surely you're 
not suggesting that I asserted such, are you?)

> > That our understanding should
> > reflect our best knowledge of reality rather than be prioritized by
> > the order of discovery seems a better criteria.

Obviously.  But this is irrelevant since nobody, 
certainly not myself, is basing their/my argument 
on the order of discovery.  

> > The idea that
> > natural selection causes or is responsible for the existence of
> > chaotic causation (randomness/chance) will likely find little support,

I agree.  This "idea" is complete nonsense.  (Surely 
you're not suggesting that I asserted such, are you?)


> > nor will the idea that history should dictate the classification.
> > 
> > I think recognizing that the universe did not start out as a
> > predictable phenomenon but became organized as it evolved
> > establishes seperate principles.

Separate principles?

> > Chaos and pattern can coexist
> > in the universe just as genetic drift and natural selection can
> > coexist as part of a larger concept, evolution.

I don't disagree with this last statement.  I just didn't 
know that any of this was even at issue.  

> Bravo.  I find this to be an extraordinarily clear and logical description
> of the logical relationship between drift and selection.  I will be
> interested to see if it elicits many protests, or much response at all, from
> sbe participants.  I think it is the sort of novel, clear-headed, and
> fundamental point that should be in the textbooks at the earliest stage of
> teaching about evolution.
> 
> Well done,
> 
> Guy

In a scientific argument in which we are attempting to 
discern the validity of the assertion that GD exists as 
a force or process separate from NS it is nonsense to 
base your argument on the assertion that GD exists.  
Moreover he's asserting that I base my argument on the 
order in which they are postulated, which is obvious BS 
(which he could never substantiate).  Frankly I don't 
see anything more here than the kinds of political tactics 
that, frankly, are employed by creationists to gloss over 
the fact that they don't really have an argument at all.  
That's all I see.  

Jim
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