Hi Michiel!

Friday July 14 2006, Michiel van der Vlist wrote to Vladimir Donskoy:

 MV>>> You still here? Good. ;-)

 VD>> I was make election of NC 2:5030 last 2 months as RO and have no more
 VD>> time.

 VD>> Result : the network have near 540 nodes, and I receive 150 voices.
 VD>> This is high percent :-) !

 MV> That indeed is very good. 28%.

 MV> Still not as good as real life elections. They are usually around 60%
 MV> here...

Useally election (and other votings) in FIDO have only 15-20%.

 VD>> Compare to percent of our referendum about Z7... And I think - NC's
 VD>> work near for sysops his net, so - percent of (active) votes will
 VD>> high.

 MV> 28% is good for Fidonet standards, but when compared to the outcome in
 MV> real life elections it is very low. So it makes me wonder how many of
 MV> those 540 nodes in your net are dead wood.

 MV> In our refion (28), in 1997, when the decline was steepest, dead wood
 MV> estimaes were around 30%.

I want speak about compare this (or other votings) to Z7 referendum result
- and decide of ZCC about it is not correct, quorum on it is real and
statement state on it - is the law. So they answer is non-right, and must
be ignore.

 MV>>>>> At first I thought the Z7 advocates had a point. But them I
 MV>>>>> realised creating a Z7 would not solve the problem
they claimed
 MV>>>>> exists. Add to that that several solutions were
offered: Region
 MV>>>>> "ZMH", Net level "ZMH". Flags,
etc , etc, but none of these got
 MV>>>>> any serious response. This lead me to suspect that
the alleged
 MV>>>>> ZMH problem was just an excuse.

 VD>>>> You forget one more case: suspend ZMH on Zone-level. As ZMH
 VD>>>> established by ZC, he can establish it time as
"worktime of any
 VD>>>> node".

 MV>>> I did not forget. That is covered by Russel's local time flags
 MV>>> and by my NOZMH flag proposals.

 VD>> Yes, but Ward is not working on it...

 MV> Nobody indicated doing something about ZMH was an acceptable compromise,
 MV> all the dissidents kept on screaming they wantd a zone 7 instead. Besides,
 MV> Ward can not do that on his own. Changing ZMH needs world wide consensus.
 MV> And there is no consensus.

Oh, Mike, when you understand that we is not "dissidents", we is
a real FIDO sysops and want to continue of existance of the FIDO!

 MV>>>>> ZMH is a non problem.  Trying to solve non problems
is a waste
 MV>>>>> of time.

 VD>>>> Yes, for you (and other sysops of you area) it is not a problem.

 MV>>> It is a problem, but it is a small problem that is managable.
 MV>>> Plus of course that there is always the alternative of running
 MV>>> the system as a point if one is unable or unwilling to observe
 MV>>> ZMH.

 VD>> Point have no rights,

 MV> Points can send and receive mail. That is all that really matters.

This is all points rights, they can't resolve all other problems.
And they can't send mail (only through boss), and they can't receive mail
(only through boss). They restrict establish connections, and restrict
echoes set which have they boss. So: point and sysop - different levels and
status.

 VD>> he have no response even for his traffic! So - sysop not like down
 VD>> his status to point...

 MV> And so we are back to "status" again...

Only if they agree with ZMH? No, it is not corect way!

I can see large number of e-mail-only nodes, it is the sysops who not want
to be points and who find "back-way" for round of ZMH.

 VD>>>> But for us it is a problem - live on the law (Policy, with ZMH)
 VD>>>> or on the real work (ZMH == Node work mail time).

 MV>>> You lost credibility on that arguments with your z6 dual listing
 MV>>> stunt.

 VD>> Our RC have dual listing too

 MV> Not any more.

And Anatoly Tung, who real live in Moscow and control his node by Internet.
His second node is 2:5020/388.

More is inusefull - we have a RC, a NC and a sysop... This is enought for
begin of Region transfer, if this resolution is accept.

 VD>>  - do you think about his unauthority?

 MV> If he comes up with the ZMH argiment I will tell him the same:

 MV> If ZMH is such a big issue, you shuld never have accepted a number in zone
 MV> 6. That places ZMH in the middle of the day your local time.

You have incorrect information - Z6MH is 20-21 UTC, so in the our area
(Moscow have UTC+3) it is the middle of the night!

 VD>> Hi win elections on our region, and he was the NC of 2:5020 formerly
 VD>> (i.e. more 50% of active sysops of our region are upholding him).

 VD>> I have same authority at our region too (I was NC 2:5055 for 2 times
 VD>> and I still NEC of this now, if speak about official "hats")...

 MV> Two plus two still does not equal five, no matter how many hats of
 MV> athority you put on...

I speak about not "many hats" but about "many sysops which
support us".

 VD>> So - you can speak about your opinition, and may be - about opinition
 VD>> of other world, but sysops of our region is not agree with you.

 MV> The value of two plus two is not established by taking a vote...

Yes, it is 4. But we speak about opinitions, not mathematics!

2+2 "nuclear bombs" kill very more 4 mans... And many votes
contra they may stop its explosion.

 MV>>> Anyway, it is good to see you are still here. Some evil tongues
 MV>>> claimed you all had left because you did not get your chocolate
 MV>>> cake. Seems they were once more trying to fabricate facts....

 VD>> What?! I never speak about want to left FIDO!

 MV> Not you, some guys in Z1 that wanted to sow disension claim that 100
 MV> sysops in R50 have left because they did not get what they wanted. Good to
 MV> see you contradict that.

Is is the false, of course.
Nobody left FIDO on this sample reason, we will try to re-convince ZCs and
to resolv our problems by other methods.

 VD>> I still very active in the our region, and I have no time for work
 VD>> both our elections and discuss on this echo (and I must to work on
 VD>> job - at real life, it need same time too).

 MV> Keep up the good work.

I try :-) !

Regards, Vladimir Donskoy

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