*** Quoting Alex Shakhaylo from a message to Carol Shenkenberger ***

 CS> Understood then.  Be aware that the smaller areas will not be able to
 CS> be heard sometimes unless care is taken.

AS> The problem I see is every simple techique to accept decisions has its
AS> lacks. But very complex technique has lacks too due to managing comple
AS> Unfortunately I don't know how to reach the golden mean, but I know th
AS> current technique is unsatisfactory.

Agreed.  I do not really have an answer either.  I do however think we can
work ¨out something.  Voting for example is much easier 'region by region'
if it is ¨zonewide in Z1, Z2, and probably Z3.  If something is Fidonet
wide, all 6 ¨zones, I do not see a way to do it other than by region to the
ZC but Z6 may ¨not be heard as it's pretty broken on conectivity.  That
isnt anyone's fault ¨but should at least be known.

 CS> Yes.  And as said, that one example is a tiny microcosm thing.  I
 CS> showed it only to show how lack of knowledge can be damaging.  None of
 CS> us really know how all the other zones work.

AS> Indeed. We should agree then, that any change or amendement should be
AS> approved by all the zones before to be presented to voting. I mean a
AS> vote mechanism also should be developed.

I am pretty sure that most of Fidonet can setup something region by region.

 CS> aspects in how we differ.  That does /not/ mean I know all or even
 CS> pretend to do so.

AS> You are OK with this. I like your tolerance and readiness to compromis
AS> accopanied by the strong principles. These are not the fair words, thi
AS> is my true feeling.

Thank you!  I have genuinely tried to learn.  At times, I have failed to
¨understand but I have made effort.

 CS> It may become one but there are technical connectivity issues with
 CS> some IP mailers.

AS> You are right. We cannot dream one of the ways to become universal. Bu
AS> I never thought of the thing. I'm racking my brains over how to concil
AS> all the practicised manners in a most painless way.

I am thinking too.  I am unsure but I do know one way that if it does not
upset ¨the people where you are, will work for the rest.  It's a bit of a
mindset ¨change for you though.  If your folks added the FQDN to the
nodelist, you ¨wouldnt have to change any part of your mailer setups and no
one outside your ¨area would have to guess anymore.  I gather however that
since your area has ¨not done this, that they have some objection?  I do
not know the reasons for ¨this and they may be good ones.

Note some outside are having problems with the 'default' idea but that does
not ¨mean they are 'right'.  They may just be stubborn or they may have
real mailer ¨setup differences unable to accomodate.  I *think* it's a bit
of both but am ¨not really sure. I am listening hard though to what is
being said from all over ¨the world on this one.


 CS> True.  Thats all that I was looking to see.  I wasnt sure.

AS> Great. It seems I've passed one of your tests :-)

Hehe no 'test' just checking to see if you knew that not all is the same
all ¨over Fidonet.

AS> Yes, Carol. I understand that to suit some separate community is more
AS> easier task than to suit everybody and that there is a temptation for
AS> majority to try to benefit at expence of a minority.

AS> But I'm against the idea 'don't touch something because it works some-
AS> how'. I hope I've made clear my position.

You have and I too want to look forward.  In fact, my personal motto is
'think ¨forward'.  The next step is always in little increments.  'Think
Forward' and ¨how can we fix the connection to your area so people outside
it can connect?  ¨To me the 'easy way' may not suit your people there. 
They will see no reason ¨to add that FQDN in as they see it as a default.

There are no easy answers.  I do not want to make your area change if they
are ¨not willing to add FQDN to the nodelist.  Your folks on the other hand
may have ¨the right way of default but we are going to have problems
applying it Z1-6 ¨wide.  Some of the zones simply do not have services for
this at all.  That ¨doesnt mean your area is 'wrong' at all.  It means you
are a hop better on this ¨than the rest and they need/should catch up but
may not be able to?


 CS> True again but it also causes some acrimony among the 'purists' when
 CS> they find one region/zone doing things differently.

AS> Oh .. I'm afraid I see what you are talking about .. But .. but we are
AS> here to counterbalance those 'purists' :-)

Yes.  It can be done.  I know you are uncomfortable being a major voice we
all ¨hear from R50.  Imagine my position?  I'm the only one you hear from
all Z6. I ¨carefully check over my packets from Z6 when I was getting mail
from them and ¨base things on that when I can.

 CS> Look at the
 CS> messages on how Z1 routes netmail to see how some do not like it if
 CS> another concept is used.  BTW, Z1 does it like your region pretty
 CS> much.  Mix and match of HRN and ERN.

AS> I accept it as an example of disagreement, but I think a local routing
AS> cannot and should not be a subject of an international discussion in
AS> general. Trust me, I do not care about inner z1 routing and I don't
AS> understand the people that are outside z1 but care about its inner
AS> routing. 

I agree but got 2 more missives today.  One was telling me yet again that
Z1 is ¨all wrong and needs to change.  I cant seem to get it over to that
person that ¨the things they object to have been there since 1990 or
earlier.  It's not a ¨little change to shift it.  Its a zone destruction to
force it to change.  I ¨cant even start to explain that well to one not
used to it.  All I can say is I ¨worked with a prospective REC in Z1 and
have some 200 netmails as it was all ¨worked out and I am told he is now
Z1EC.  I took a concept driven approach and ¨not all those netmails are
really related but it did take 3-4 weeks.  HRN is ¨simple.  HRN requires no
thought.  ERN is faster and more reliable but requires ¨the brain be
engaged.  I note R50 does this very well the same way so you ¨probably
would be amused at the whole thing.

Think Forward my friend!  It's possible.
                                       xxcarol

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