Michiel van der Vlist (2:280/5555) wrote to Steven Horn at 13:42 on 21 Jan 2003:

 MvdV> What I meant was that /if/ you convert, it is mostly from US to
 MvdV> CAN and back intread of to/from some other currency. Isn't that
 MvdV> so?

I often have to determine how much in Canadian$ a purchase in US$ will cost
me.  However, I tend to rely on conversion software.

 MvdV> Perhaps. But you must pay in /some/ way for your local calls.
 MvdV> TANSTAAFL.

It seems to have escaped you that I pay X dollars for a service.  That
service includes the making of local calls without charge.  Now one can
argue that this results in my local charges being higher than those paid by
someone who is charged for local calls but one cannot say that for sure. 
 

 MvdV> You still pay.

I pay for the telephone service.  That service does NOT force me to pay for
 calls as a separate item.

 MvdV> Just start wondering what would happen if everyone would leave
 MvdV> their lines open 24 hour a day.

Only in the Netherlands would one be dumb enough to do that.

 MvdV> Onlt small private branch exchanges are what they call "non
 MvdV> saturable". That means every extension can be engaged in a
 MvdV> conversatiuon at the same time. It means it must have enough
 MvdV> switches to provide half as many paths as there are extensions.
 MvdV> For small exchanges this is feasible but for larger ones it is
 MvdV> uneconomical. So larger PABX's and public exchanges are saturated
 MvdV> when more than a certain percentage of the subscribers try to
 MvdV> make a call a the same time. For the old mechanical exchanges
 MvdV> this was 7%. If seven out of a hundred subscribers in the same
 MvdV> bundle of hundred went off hook, the eighth will not get a dial
 MvdV> tone anymore. For the modern electronic exchanges this figure may
 MvdV> be higher, but it is not 100%.


Notwithstanding that assertion, our telephone companies have never resorted
to charging for local calls to limit loads.  That does mean that one may
not be able to make a call (usually a long distance call) during a
particularly busy period but calls still remain unmetered.  

 MvdV> Now there is two ways to handle this problem. Meter all calls so
 MvdV> that subscribers have an incentive to limit their calls or
 MvdV> install more switches to handle the increased load. because that
 MvdV> is what /will/ happen. If something is "free" people will make
 MvdV> more use of it than when they have to pay for it.

Were you born or raised a Calvinist?  Most people can and do exercise
restraint, especially as using a telephone is valueless unless one has
someone or something to call.
 
 MvdV> Yout "free" local calls are not and can not be truly free. In
 MvdV> fact simple economics tells us that on average the subscribers
 MvdV> actually pay more for it than when the calls are metered.

Please do your math.  You already know that my local basic access costs me
$18.58 Euros per month.  I normally make 4 or 5 local calls each weekday
and double that number in weekends.  Now calculate your local basic access
and then factor in 36 calls per week.
 
 MvdV> For /you/ the "free" calls are of advantage. But that is only
 MvdV> because the others who make less use of it pay more...

I doubt that I am a particularly heavy user.

 MvdV> Some do, some don't. The "free" ones saddle you with more
 MvdV> commercials.

I haven't seen a truly "free" ISP for some time.  In any case,
none were ever free here because they never provided local telephone
numbers.  

 MvdV> My provider is the HCC, the Hobby Computer Club. I pay EUR 45 a
 MvdV> year for membership. For that I get "free" InterNet access. But I
 MvdV> get a lot more than just that for my membership fee.

That might be a good rate depending on how much access that gives you. 
Paying $CAN6.00 a month here would give you very limited access.

 MvdV> I wouldn't call it robbery. They provide a service that I use and
 MvdV> I pay for that service. It may seem a high price, but it is still
 MvdV> the cheapest way for a casual InterNet user.

Note that it was the telephone charges that I considered unusually high.  A
call to a local ISP here is considered just another local call.

 MvdV> Asking EUR 1.70 for 60 minutes of parking in the "vicinity" of my
 MvdV> girl's apartment in Amsterdam; THAT's robbery.

That's about $2.75 an hour which is probably less than what you would pay
if you put your car in a parking lot in downtown Toronto.  After visiting
Toronto two weeks ago, I've decided that having a car would be as much of a
nuisance as an advantage.

 MvdV> Large numbers HAVE deserted FidoNet since the advent of
 MvdV> affordable private InterNet. FidoNet R28 is just a shadow of what
 MvdV> it used to be. From the 1000 sysops and 5500 points there are
 MvdV> just 50 sysops and 70 points left. Dutch echomail has completely
 MvdV> dried up. Why do you think I am here instead of in a cosy local
 MvdV> echo in my native language? Because it is all gone! Not enough
 MvdV> people left to make interesting conversation.

I would have thought with 120 left, someone could say something.

 MvdV> As for ION nodes, I don't know. As I said IP over dial up is not
 MvdV> attractive here, let alone ION over dial up.

It would be difficult to run an ION node over a dial up link unless one
could covince one's ISP to provide a fixed ISP.

 MvdV> It is only a viable option when one has a permanent non metered
 MvdV> connection to the InterNet.

For once we agree.

 MvdV> At the moment the xdsl providers are in heavy competion. My
 MvdV> favourite provider now has a "light adsl" offer for EUR 29.95 a
 MvdV> month plus "free modem." The offer expires Jan. 31th. I am in
 MvdV> doubt...

That's at least 40% more than one would pay for the same service here.  A
light ADSL account would be EUR 18.50.  As for the free modem, my full ADSL
account which is EUR 36.93 includes a modem as part of the service which I
have to take.  There is no reduction in cost if I were to buy my own.

 MvdV> I think however that there is a serious risk that if I take it, I
 MvdV> may find whatever I find so interesting that I will lose
 MvdV> interest in FidoNet.... 

I would have doubted that.:-)

Take care,

Steven Horn (steven_a_horn{at}yahoo.ca)
Moderator, ALASKA_CHAT 
--- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+