From: "Mark" 

I guess it just depends on where one is coming from. I've not perceived any
scare tactics from this administration, in fact Bush has been remarkably
consistent in his philosphy about world events and his goals in relation to
them since before he was elected the first time. I agree with his overall
position, but not necessarily with all of his actions/inactions.

I just don't see this "climate of fear" that you do Rich, I
understand that that's your perception, but I don't see it that way and
doubt we'll ever come together on it.


"Rich Gauszka"  wrote in message
news:44b1cb78$1{at}w3.nls.net...
> Nope - not my position at all. I expect modifications in surveillance and
> law enforcement  but I also expect them not to be bulldozed through in a
> climate of fear without regards to the ramifications of those changes to
> us as a free people. The scare tactics from this administration will
> probably reach another peak in the coming months as the elections near. I
> fully expect a class of terrorist 1st graders to be exposed and arrested
> in August
>
> Hoekstra is from my state Michigan and in the live interview I saw with
> him on our local 10 pm news today he was still upset
>
>
> "Mark"  wrote in message
news:44b1bf0e{at}w3.nls.net...
>> You're carrying over the last conversation into this one, I still
>> disagree on that thread, but, Hoekstra isn't upset about the programs
>> being implemented, he was questioning the fact that he hadn't been
>> briefed on this one or that in a timely manner. That's since been
>> corrected and the papers are highlighting the wrong points in his letter
>> IMHO.
>>
>> We invented the Internet and turned it loose on the world, our enemies
>> are thanking us very much and using it against us. Your position seems to
>> be, c'est la vie, let it rock and roll; let our enemies use our creation
>> against us because it's some terrible affront to our freedom and privacy
>> if we are to monitor the use of our creation by our enemies that want us
>> dead and buried and as soon as they can do so.
>>
>> Hell, what an odd time to say we shouldn't watch them using our Internet
>> when we just foiled a plot to take out thousands of commuters on PATH
>> from NJ to NY *by doing just that*. I remain willing to have them find
>> out that I like Skippy Natural "no need to stir" Peanut
Butter if it
>> means they can save my life on the way to work.
>>
>> "Rich Gauszka"  wrote in message
>> news:44b1b956$1{at}w3.nls.net...
>>> Even the FBI admitted to mishandling information that could have
>>> detected the terrorist pilots prior to 9/11. That you see the need for
>>> us to give up liberties for this bureaucratic incompetence astounds me.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "Mark"  wrote in message
>>> news:44b19348$1{at}w3.nls.net...
>>>> Oh c'mon Rich, we've revamped our intelligence apparatus
in a big way
>>>> since 9/11, when they didn't stop the plot, as they didn't
in the first
>>>> WTC attack, and there are bound to be oversteps/oversights
in this area
>>>> or that, it's going to take awhile to get it all together properly.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Rich Gauszka"  wrote
in message
>>>> news:44b18e09$1{at}w3.nls.net...
>>>>> Good grief Mark - The world is as it's always been -
only the names of
>>>>> the 'bad' guys making the threats have changed. 
Agencies charged to
>>>>> protect us have made arrests and stopped plots well
before Bush was a
>>>>> thought. The frightening event in the future is the
dissolution of our
>>>>> liberties and not some amorphous bogeyman.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "Mark"  wrote in message
>>>>> news:44b18877$1{at}w3.nls.net...
>>>>>> That the internal whistleblower thing worked the
way it was supposed
>>>>>> to (up until some ass leaked the letter itself) is
a good thing.
>>>>>> Hoekstra also said there's no way that they
can/want to be briefed on
>>>>>> every single program, he felt these should have
made the cut.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What this tells me, is that we're in a transition
phase adjusting to
>>>>>> a new world-wide threat and it's going to take
some time to get it
>>>>>> all sorted out (via squabbles such as this one and
Supreme Court
>>>>>> input in other areas, as well as continuing
adjustments in the way
>>>>>> other agencies and departments communicate).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I just don't see how this transition can be expected to be
>>>>>> accomplished with no missteps at all, but, eh,
let's blame Bush. 
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This part of his letter, however, is what I found
interesting and
>>>>>> quite disturbing:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "In fact, I have long been convinced that a strong and
>>>>>> well-positioned group within the Agency
intentionally undermined the
>>>>>> Administration and its policies.  This argument is
supported by the
>>>>>> Ambassador Wilson/Valerie Plame events, as well as
by the string of
>>>>>> unauthorized disclosures from an organization that
prides itself with
>>>>>> being able to keep secrets.  I have come to the
belief that, despite
>>>>>> his service to the DO, Mr. Kappes may have been a
part of this group.
>>>>>> I must take note when my Democratic colleagues -
those who so
>>>>>> vehemently denounced and now publicly attacked the
strong choice of
>>>>>> Porter Goss as Director - now publicly support Mr.
Kappes's return."
>>>>>>
http://justoneminute.typepad.com/main/2006/07/hoekstra_cia_gr.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What we've got going on, I think, is a plethora of
power struggles,
>>>>>> and it ain't purty and it ain't making us safer or
expediting the
>>>>>> elimination of terrorist groups around the world.
So I wish they'd
>>>>>> all swallow their egos and kiss and make up
>>>>> freezes over>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Rich Gauszka"
 wrote in message
>>>>>> news:44b17a2e{at}w3.nls.net...
>>>>>>> Well now the Republican chair of the House
Intelligence Committee is
>>>>>>> saying it. Perhaps Bush really likes to play
'Twenty Questions'
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=politicsNews&storyI
D=2006-07-09T143910Z_01_N09148126_RTRUKOC_0_US-SECURITY-INTELLIGENCE.xml
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The Bush administration
was running several
>>>>>>> intelligence programs, including one major
activity, that it kept
>>>>>>> secret from Congress until whistle-blowers
told the House of
>>>>>>> Representatives Intelligence Committee, the
committee's chairman
>>>>>>> said on Sunday.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Rep. Pete Hoekstra, a Michigan Republican who
chairs the House
>>>>>>> Intelligence Committee, said on Fox News
Sunday he had written a
>>>>>>> four-page to President George W. Bush in May
warning him that the
>>>>>>> failure to disclose the intelligence
activities to Congress may be a
>>>>>>> violation of the law.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In doing so, he confirmed a story that first
ran in Sunday editions
>>>>>>> of the New York Times.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "I take it very, very seriously otherwise
I would not have written
>>>>>>> the letter to the president," Hoekstra said.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "This is actually a case where the
whistle-blower process was
>>>>>>> working appropriately and people within the
intelligence community
>>>>>>> brought to my attention some programs that
they believed we had not
>>>>>>> been briefed on. They were right," said
Hoekstra, a close ally of
>>>>>>> Bush.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "We asked by code name about some of
these programs. We have now
>>>>>>> been briefed on those programs but I wanted to
reinforce to the
>>>>>>> president and to the executive branch and the
intelligence community
>>>>>>> how important by law is the requirement that
they keep the
>>>>>>> legislative branch informed of what they are
doing," Hoekstra said.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The White House declined to comment directly
on the allegations in
>>>>>>> Hoekstra's letter. "We will continue to
work closely with the
>>>>>>> chairman and other congressional leaders on
important national
>>>>>>> security issues," said Alex Conant, a
White House spokesman.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Critics have charged that the Bush
administration has a penchant for
>>>>>>> secrecy and has pushed its legal powers to the
limit and possibly
>>>>>>> beyond in pursuing its "war on
terror." But Hoekstra's complaint was
>>>>>>> particularly significant since it came from a
strong supporter of
>>>>>>> the administration's tactics.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hoekstra complained in his letter to Bush that
the U.S. Congress
>>>>>>> "simply should not have to play 'Twenty
Questions' to get the
>>>>>>> information that it deserves under our
Constitution."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In the letter and the interview, Hoekstra did
not provide details
>>>>>>> about the programs, which presumably remain secret.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hoekstra had been briefed about both the
National Security Agency's
>>>>>>> domestic surveillance program and the Treasury
Department's tracking
>>>>>>> of international banking transactions, both of
which were leaked to
>>>>>>> the media.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> He said he did not expect to be briefed about everything
>>>>>>> intelligence agencies were doing but at least
one of the secret
>>>>>>> activities was a major program which Congress
definitely should have
>>>>>>> been informed about.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In the letter, Hoekstra said the lack of
disclosure possibly
>>>>>>> constituted a "breach of responsibility
by the administration, a
>>>>>>> violation of the law, and, just as
importantly, a direct affront to
>>>>>>> me and the members of this committee who have
so ardently supported
>>>>>>> efforts to collect information on our enemies."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

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