From: Adam 

John Cuccia wrote:
> On Wed, 19 Jul 2006 20:57:01 +0100, Adam
> <""4thwormcastfromthemolehill\"{at}the field.near the
bridge"> wrote:
>
>>> Huh?  There wouldn't be a need to fight the Israelis if it weren't for
>>> Hezbollah.
>> Do you seriously think that?
>
> I do.
>
>> If so then there was no need to resist Al Qaeda after 9-11.
>
> You have things upside down.  Al-Qaeda is analogous to Hezbollah, not
> to Israel.
>

Only to the West.

Political violence is political violence & there only 2 choices in the
face of it:

1) Resist it
2) Comply with the political demands possibly including leaving your home,
boarding some cattle trucks to.....somewhere..., changing your nationality
etc.etc.

Which option did you take following 9-11 & why are the Lebanese somehow
so far beneath you that they can not make a similar legitimate choice?

Option (1) also comes in many flavors/degrees e.g.:

Resist it to the degree of making political demands on those who are making
political demands on you

Resist it to the point of destroying those who would make political demands on you.

Resist it till the price to those making the demands exceeds the benefits
of the demands.

It is now clear to all that the West is quite happy with political violence
so long as it is the West's political violence. If you are Serbian or
Sudanese or Iranian, or Arab or etc.etc. then.....oooeeer political
violence is so wrong but if you are Western then it's so right.

That used to be called colonial imperialism but surely that's a thing of the past?

Israel invaded & nearly destroyed Lebanon including occupying the south
of the country.

Let's make it more local to help with the clarity:

If Mexico invaded the US, nearly destroyed it and then occupied Texas, New
Mexico, Arizona, Southern California etc do you think that an
"American Resistance movement" would spring up to try & get
those areas back?

& Once that had been achieved do you think the Americans would feel it
was OK for Mexican fighter bombers to fly anywhere they wanted in the US
? & if they also had the OK to drop bombs onto anything they felt like?

Would it be OK for Mexican gunboats to sail up & down your coast within
sight of land, possibly shelling areas as & when they felt like?

How about if Mexico had captured lots of Americans & was then simply
holding them in prison & refusing to release them even though in theory
"the war is over"?

What about if Mexican operatives carried on killing people in the US not
just via gunboats, fighter bombers etc but also car bombs?

Would that be OK?

Heck from what you're saying any objections by the US would be simply
aggression against the poor old Mexicans.


e.g.:

http://yalibnan.com/site/archives/2006/06/murr_israeli_ai.php

"Friday, 16 June, 2006 {at} 1:37 PM

Beirut- Lebanon's Defense Minister Elias Murr has revealed that an Israeli
aircraft detonated the car bomb that killed last month the two Islamic
Jihad officials in the southern city of Sidon."

"Murr briefed the cabinet on the May 26 car bombing that killed
Mahmoud Majzoub and his brother Nidal as they walked out of their home.
Both men were Lebanese citizens.

"Information received so far shows there is a strong possibility that
the detonator in the booby-trapped car was set off by an Israeli aircraft
monitoring his movements via a camera mounted on a truck," Murr said.

He said it was "the first time in the 30 years Israel has been
carrying out operations in Lebanon that an operation was executed at such a
high-tech level.

"Nothing can provide protection in the face of this superior technique
in terrorism and explosives," Murr added."

Note this is the pro-American pro-democracy Defense minister

&

"The Lebanese army announced Saturday it had arrested Rafeh, 57, a
retired police officer, for the killing of the Majzoub brothers. It said he
"had links to Israeli intelligence."

On Tuesday, the military said Rafeh had confessed to killing the two
Islamic Jihad officials as well as to other operations ... including the
killing of two Hezbollah officials in 1999 and 2003, and the slaying of the
son of Ahmed Jibril, leader of the radical Popular Front for the Liberation
of Palestine-General Command (PFLP-GC) in 2002."

&

"In a related development, Israeli Newspaper Yediot Aharonot demanded
an investigation Friday into whether Israeli agents plotted and carried out
the bomb attack in the city of Sidon that killed the two Islamic Jihad
officials.

"If it turns out this operation was effectively carried out by Mossad
or another Israeli secret service, an outsider from the intelligence world
should be appointed to know whether it was worth it and whether it lays
groups open to risk," wrote Yediot Aharonot, Israel's top-selling
newspaper.

The paper said the May 26 bombing demonstrated that "even after the
Syrian withdrawal from Lebanon, the Lebanese had decided to combat
attempted Israeli operations targeting terrorist groups" in their
country.

Lebanon has detained many people on charges of spying for Israel. The
country considers itself at war with its southern neighbor and bans its
citizens from having any contact with Israel."

& then there was the car bomb on Jihad Jibril n 2002 etc.etc.etc.

But hey all this sort of stuff is just forgotten & it's Hizbollah's
fault just as the West Bank & Gaze is Hamas's fault etc.etc.



>>>  Israel,  having ceded disputed lands and removed occupying
>>> troops from southern Lebanon now lives behind an  internationally
>>> recognized border with Lebanon, and is well within its rights as a
>>> sovereign nation to respond to the recent invasion and kidnapping by
>>> Hezbollah forces
>>>
>> Ceded disputed land???
>
> Golan Heights and occupied territories in southern Lebanon.
>

Huh? This is not disputed land, it is occupied land.

Is Iraq "American disputed land"?

No wonder it's taking so long for you to pull out.

>> They nearly destroyed Lebanon and then occupied the south for 20 years.
>
> And have been gone for six.
>

Gone? They've been planting car bombs, sending in fighter bombers, gunboats etc.

I have listed one example above but if you want to list all the official
protests Lebanon has made wrt the frequent Israeli aerial & naval
incursions, not to mention terroist attacks such as car bombs then.....it's
a long list.


>> They have no recognised border with the Arabs. By their own choice.
>
> They recognize a border with Lebanon and have established a border
> with Gaza residents.  The West Bank territories are still in dispute.
>

They have declared their own borders excepting in those places where they
think they can nick some more land. Great for them. Where is the border
with Syria? With Jordan? WRT Gaza, they declared the borders as (a) Gaza
should extend a bit further to the north, (b) it is a self declared border.

>> They have been flying over lebanon ever since. They have been putting
>> gunboats right off the coast ever since. They have been interfering in
>> Lebanese internal affairs ever since.
>
> If the Lebanese government can't control heavily armed rogue militias
> within their own borders then Israel would be stupid to not do the
> things you mentioned.
>

Like planting car bombs? Is it stupid not to plant car bombs? So the Iraqi
insurgents are way more intelligent than the US mil?

There has been a conscious effort ofn the part of both Israel & Syria
not to see any sort of real Lebanese armed forces. Heck where would the
Israeli airforce train then?

> In my opinion, the Lebanese government should be joining with Israel
> in ridding southern Lebanon of Hezbollah and its 10000+ rockets.  It
> is in the long term interest of both countries.
>

Nope, it is in the long term interest of the West. However the West has
screwed things up almost totally with this basically preplanned (certainly
between Israel & the US) "just waiting for the provocation"
war.

Bush & Blair (& the West n general) have not just lost the
islamists but now even the Arab modernizers/democrats. Well done.

Reality is that only the Arabs & Muslims will come to the aid of Arabs
and Muslims. The West only cares about Westerners including their levantine
colony. All that guff about the evil of killing & injuring civilians is
simple self serving bullshit. If they are Western civies then it's bad/evil
etc.etc. If it's Arab/Muslim civies then f*ck em.

That much has been made clear to the Arab democrats n the last few days.


>> But no this is all about Hezbollah just like Gaza & the West Bank are
>> Hamas's fault.
>
> This time, yes.  Hezbollah launched an attack on the Israeli army. You
> can argue about the intensity of the Israeli response, but you can't
> seriously claim that Hezbollah is merely defending Lebanon because the
> government can't.
>

Yes you can. Israel has bombed "targets in Lebanon" to strike at
Palestinian factions, it has threatened Lebanon by flying fully armed
fighter bombers at will over Lebanon etc.etc.


>>> Hezbollah is as big a threat to the peace and prosperity of Lebanon as
>>> they are to Israel.
>> Nope. They are the only functioning mil that The Lebanese have. Would
>> your country be better of wrose off without your mil?
>
> My country would be worse off with a mil that acted independently of
> the political leadership.
>

Would it be worse off with a mil which acted independently or with no mil at all?


e.g. if the Mexicans could just march up to LA or St Louis & destroy
them & everything in between would that be a good thing? If they could
use fighters to bomb at will would that be a good thing? If they could sail
up to New Orleans & shell it from ships would that be a good thing?


>> Oh the std horrors of war ranging from foreigners dropping bombs on
>> kiddies to long term occupation by foreigners etc.
>
> None of which happened until Hezbollah attacked.
>

Bollocks. You just choose not to remember.

Oh let's not look back except to those bits which fit our beleif that our
political violence is good & sorts problems where their's is evil &
just creates problems.

Adam

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