*** Answering a msg seen in area CARBON.COPY (CARBON.COPY).

Hi, Michiel!

16 Dec 02 16:18, Michiel van der Vlist said to Alex Shakhaylo:

 MV>>> Yes and so Binkp is just another protocol that is put on top of
 MV>>> the TCP/IP structure of the InterNet.

 AS>> I see it under the different angle. BinkP also is put on top of
 AS>> the TCP/IP protocol as well as InterNet. TCP/IP is not a
 AS>> structure,

 MV> Semantics. Where does the 'I' in TCP/IP stand for?

Nowhere.

 AS>> it is just a transport protocol for global networks of ANY kind.

 MV> And the Binkp protocol is put on top of that as I said.

Yes. But we should find two different words for internet as a mean
of physical connection and for InterNet as a social phenomena. We
should do it to avoid misunderstanding.

 MV>>> When adding something one always has to ask "what is the added
 MV>>> value". So I ask you, what does Binkp offer that is not already
 MV>>> offered to the InterNet user by http/ftp/ICQ/ etc?

 AS>> BinkP  offers nothing to the InterNet users, it offers some
 AS>> convinience to the FidoNet users.

 MV> FidoNet users that make use of the InterNet to transport their packets
 MV> are also Internet users.

No, they are FidoNet users, because InterNet users use protocols which are
described in RFCs, but you'll never find RFC describing binkP protocol.

 AS>> I regard the FidoNet as a community and not as a set of
 AS>> the protocols.

 MV> If you remove the bikes from a bikes club the community that forms it
 MV> well fall apart faster than a snowflake in hell.

May be. But if the bikes will be changed by something then community will
survive. After all nobody objects you to use modem :-)

 MV>>> Because that is what you are talking about aren't you? You want
 MV>>> to attract new users and the only place they can be found is the
 MV>>> InterNet.  What has FidoNet to offer to /them/?

 AS>> In general it offers more easy way to participate.

 MV> To participate in /what/?

Hm .. I have no idea what I did mean. Seems I was sleepy, sorry :-)

Well. I know several cases when people applied for ip-only nodes and was
denied. I don't know what they were attracted with.

 AS>>>> I see here a common trend. I mean people need more than only
 AS>>>> transport, they also need to be organised by some social mean.

 MV>>> What is the social structure of FidoNet?

 AS>> It is too complex concept to be described in two words.

 MV> Use as many words as you need. If it exists you must be able to
 MV> describe it.

No, sorry. It is not that simple task for me to describe it even in
Russian. At least not at the moment, it is not fully formed idea, I
need some time and efforts to be able to describe it.

 MV>>> Do you really think it will stay upright if we radiacally
 MV>>> change technology? I doubt it.

 AS>> No need to change all the technology, just to widen low transport
 AS>> layer. Yes, I think that such a widening can serve as an upright.

 MV> Please provide the arguments for your assertion.

My argument is very simple. Additional restrictions always limit the
willing to participate.

 MV>>> Let's face it, the only thing the members of FidoNet have in
 MV>>> common is that they play with mailers.

 AS>> Sorry, I disagree. I have forgotten when I played with my
 AS>> mailer last time,

 MV> You "play" with it every time you send a packet of messages.

It is fully automated process.

 AS>> I even have forgotten when I saw log file of my mailer last
 AS>> time. I'm happy it works without a need for my attention to
 AS>> be drawn to it.

 MV> Then why is it you write so many messages about how we should adapt
 MV> the nodelist?

Many ? :-)

If you do mean Pvt issue I have tired to explain the difference between
Pvt and IP-Pvt. You cannot imagine the number of misinterpretations it
causes among our numerous people.

 MV>>> The moment they don't need mailers anymore to communicate
 MV>>> the social structure will collapse like a sand castle in
 MV>>> the waves.

 AS>> ip mailers are mailers too. And you also need router,
 AS>> tosser and editor in any case.

 MV> No, I do not need that any more when I have a permanent InterNet
 MV> connection and cost is no longer an issue. I can use e-mail for
 MV> private correspondence and I can use web forums, mailing lists or
 MV> usenet to share ideas across a group.

But look at me. I have almost permanent internet connection I use
e-mail for my business needs, and I use fidonet to have a fun :-)
Am I crazy ? May be. But there are surely other crazies in the big
big world 

 MV>>> Fidonet was a success because it got so much out of that
 MV>>> modem to modem technology. A technology that was the only
 MV>>> one available at the time.

 AS>> Yes, but now time has changed, you see.

 MV> Precisely my point. In pthe past we neededd to be economical width
 MV> bandwith and on line time. And that was were Fidonet had it;s strong
 MV> points. Now that that is shifting, the need for FidoNet is going too.

The need as for the communication technology is going, but the need as for
a hobby or a club remains.

 AS>> I guess it is not very hard to predict what will happen to
 AS>> the fidonet in z2 looking at z1. In the West part it will
 AS>> happen a little sooner, in the East one a little later.

 MV> That's hardly a prediction because it already HAS happened in the
 MV> West. In the high days we has 1200 listed nodes and 5600 listed points
 MV> in The Netherlands. And Lord knows how many users. Now the users are
 MV> extinct and there are some 50 sysops and 77 registred points left.

Hm .. Well, the drop is impressive, but the remained part seems to be
stable enough. After all I don't need so many people I physically can
not remember all of them. I need just a few from every part of the
world. 

 MV> Of course the same will happen in Eastern Europe when InterNet
 MV> becomes as widely available as in the West.

I'm not sure. Our people seems to be not that practical. But this is
just my subjective observation.

 AS>> Only China can help  :-)

 MV> No good to me. I don't speak Chinese...

Do you speak Russian ? Do we speak in Russian ?

 MV>>> But when alternatives are readily available to everyone, why
 MV>>> would anyone need FidoNet anymore? What is the added value?

 AS>> So you still don't know ?

 MV> If I knew there would be no need to ask.

 AS>> Fidonet is RPG in its core and people are players :-)

 MV> That's one way to look at it. ;-)

And very essential one I think :-)

 AS>> Well, It was half-joke (still the one which has some truth
 AS>> in it).

 MV> But if it ios an RPG, one may ask why we have to uphold that shaky mix
 MV> of technology we call FidoNet upright to play it.

Sorry, Michiel. The first half of my answer has taken so much efforts
of me I have got very sleepy (look at the time of my message). The
second half-part of your message I'll answer tomorrow. I really will hit
the table with my head if I haven't gone to sleep immidiately :-)

Bye, Sinc, Alex

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