Tim Tyler wrote:
> Anon.  wrote or quoted:
> 
>>Tim Tyler wrote:
> 
> 
>>>I can find studies of policing as well as anyone.  The problem is
>>>illustrating that the phenomenon represents evidence for group selection.
>>>
>>>For me the most obvious interpretation is that human policemen are
>>>acting selfishly - doing a risky-but-well-rewarded job which is in
>>>demand by society - and using the proceeds to feed their kids.
>>
>>But society is paying the policement, so there has to be some reward for 
>>society.  The ability to give out this reward is a group level 
>>acitivity, so should evolve at that level.
> 
> 
> That doesn't seem to make much sense.  If some behaviour pattern is
> displayed by groups that doesn't mean that it evolved by group selection -
> or that it will do so in the future.
> 
> Search on "the selfish herd" for what I hope will be a clear
> counter-example - where what would normally be seen as a group-level
> behaviour is shown to be able to be evolved by individual-level selection.
> 
You're giving me general arguments, but not actually giving any answer 
to the specific case.  I agree that some apparent group-level behaviour 
is due to individual level selection, but that doesn't prove that ALL 
group-level behaviour is due to individual level selection.

> 
>>>As far as Hymenoptera go - where the workers are sterile, I'm
>>>quite happy to regard the colony as the individual and the
>>>workers as akin to cells.
>>
>>But you still have the problem of the interaction between different 
>>levels of selection - why are workers infertile?  Even ones that can 
>>become fertile?
> 
> 
> What problem are you talking about?
> 
> I expect workers are infertile for the same reason that somatic cells
> are infertile - to ensure their loyalty; and make their owner's phenotype 
> more harmonious.

But there are many species of social hymenoptera where the workers can 
become fertile, but this is supressed by the queen.  So, how did the 
supression mechanism come about?  Why did the ants evolve so that 
workers receive the queen's signal?  Doing so reduces their individual 
fitness.

Bob

-- 
Bob O'Hara

Rolf Nevanlinna Institute
P.O. Box 4 (Yliopistonkatu 5)
FIN-00014 University of Helsinki
Finland
Telephone: +358-9-191 23743
Mobile: +358 50 599 0540
Fax:  +358-9-191 22 779
WWW:  http://www.RNI.Helsinki.FI/~boh/
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