[Dec 18, 96 - 11:25] Jane Kelley of 1:138/255 wrote to Jerry Schwartz:
JS>>JK> Then stick to them.  The FACTS are, as amply demonstrated by doctors 
JS>>JK> who are specialists in addiction and related fields, that children 
nd
JS>>JK> others with ADHD are from families with a history of alcoholism in a
JS>>JK> certain percentage of cases.
JS>>JK> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
JS>>I'd bet that children and others withOUT ADHD are from families with a
JS>>history of alcoholism in a much higher percentage of cases.  Statements 
JS>>like that are not very useful.
JK> I think that your logic stinks.  If some of the cases of ADD and ADHD
JK> are from families with a history of alcoholism, then some are not going
JK> to be.  And if the amount with is significant enough that several folks
JK> are concerned about these children being misdiagnosed and mistreated,
JK> then it is far past time for all around them to be concerned with the
JK> very real spectre of malpractice and injury to those same children.
You have offered no evidence that a disproportionate number of people with 
AD(H)D are from families with a history of alcoholism: you have merely 
asserted that a certain percentage is (and you didn't even specify the 
percentage).  With alcoholics making up 9% of the population (as I heard this 
morning on the news), any child has around a 17% chance that at least one 
parent will be an alcoholic (if I remember my statistics correctly).
JK> Every doctor should be able to diagnose alcoholism and addiction.  There
JK> have been several articles published on this subject, yet they remain in
JK> denial.  I worked for one doctor in Alaksa who had a practice full of
JK> them, was giving them one drug after another that didn't do sicum for
JK> the problem, yet no where in the records was there any mention of the
JK> real problem.
JS>>Jane, have you ever heard the saying "To a man who only has a hammer, 
every
JS>>problem looks like a nail"?  I'm afraid that's how you have come across.  
JS>>It may be that AD(H)D is related genetically to alcoholism in some cases, 
I
JS>>don't know nor do I know that anyone knows.  Doctors who are specialists 
in
JS>>addiction and related fields may be justifiably concerned about the 
effects
JS>>of medications on the people they treat and study, but that doesn't mean 
JS>>tha patients who benefit from medication should do without.
JK> YES, IT DOES. ALCOHOLICS AND ADDICTS WILL APPEAR TO "BENEFIT" from
JK> drugs of their choice.  The alcoholics function much better with
JK> alcohol in the early stages of their addiction.
I've never heard or read anything to suggest that.  What literature can you 
cite to support that?  So far as I know, a person with a genetic 
predisposition to alcoholism who has never touched alcohol functions quite 
normally.
JK> THIS IS EXACTLY WHY THERE IS SO LITTLE CONCERN SHOWN FOR THE TRUTH AT
JK> THE PRESENT TIME.  Everyone wants a fast fix.  The school wants  the kid
JK> to quiet down and act normal, the family wants an end to the temper
JK> tantrums, etc.  So if some drug will provide this, the pressure is on to
JK> do just that.
JS>>There have been a lot of unsubstantiated claims that Ritalin is
highly JS>>addictive, but the refutation comes readily to hand: people
JK> who use Ritalin JS>for AD(H)D often have trouble remembering to take it.
JK> That is not typically JS>characteristic of an addiction.  About two
JK> years ago there was a big JS>discussion of pill timers and the like here
JK> in this conference; I doubt that JS>you'd ever hear anything like that
JK> in a conference for heroin users.
JK> FOR THOSE WITHOUT THE BRAIN CHEMISTRY OF ALCOHOLISM, Ritalin is great.
JK> AND those folks will not tend toward addiction.
JK> NOW LISTEN UP.  THE BRAIN AND BODY CHEMISTRY OF THOSE FAMILIES WHICH
JK> HAVE ALCOHOLISM IS DIFFERENT AT BIRTH.  This doesnt abruptly change
JK> later on.  It just gets worse with the constant damage to the human
JK> immune system.
JK> ONe friend of mine developed emphysema from smoking.  His habit wasn't
JK> any worse than anyone else's habit.  He was the one who had the Ritalin
JK> as a kid and never should have had it as he is an alcoholic.
One friend of yours does not make a valid sample: you have no idea how many 
people who have taken Ritalin and smoked did not develop emphysema, but I 
don't doubt it is a number greater than one.
JK> THE SAME ENZYME system that gets rid of the Ritalin in the body also is
JK> the one that GETS RID of all other drugs.  And when it is heavily
JK> damaged, the immune system is also damaged.  Last I heard from him he
JK> was going to attempt to build his immune system back up again.
Which enzyme system is that?  And what is your evidence that Ritalin damages 
the immune system?
To be honest, I don't remember if the latest findings show that alcohol 
consumption damages the immune system, or if the assocatiated malnutrition 
and self-abuse do.  Perhaps you know?
JS>>There was a lot of noise about "Prozac made me eat my baby" a few years 
JS>>ago, and that was apparently a well-orchestrated campaign by the 
JS>>Scientologists.
JK> I have had two male, bipolar alcoholic friends ride in the small
JK> Japanese pickup truck I own at two different times.  Both went off on
JK> me, suddenly becoming very weird and exhibiting unusual behavior. Both
JK> were taking Prozac at the time.  The first one promptly called his
JK> doctor who was one of the better known psychiatrists in Seattle.  She
JK> took him off the Prozac immediately (planned withdrawal) and there were
JK> no further incidents.
JK> The second one also went into his psychiatrist and was withdrawn from
JK> the Prozac.  That doctor also did some research into medications and put
JK> him on an alternative for the bipolar condition.
JK> There are other folks around here who will not either take Prozac or who
JK> will not prescribe it due to similar experiences.
Jane, no number of anecdotes that you can relate will ever replace a proper 
double-blind study; and until such a study has been replicated it will not be 
very convincing.
JS>>Overall, Ritalin and Prozac have both been studied
JK> extensively and are JS>relatively benign compared to (for example) a
JK> high-fat diet.
JK> ONLY FOR A PERCENTAGE OF THE POPULATION
JK> And, the latest remedial diet is not the high-fat diet.  It is a mixture
JK> of carefully formulated food supplements that work far better for the
JK> families with alcoholism than the Ritalin ever will.
I never said that a high-fat diet was remedial: I was contrasting the risks 
associated with Ritalin and or Prozac with something far more common and far 
more deleterious to one's health.
JS>>That being said, I've been
JK> told by people in AA/Alanon that alcoholics JS>shouldn't even take
JK> aspirin because they have "addictive personalities."
JK> They don't know what they are talking about and should stop practising
JK> medicine without a license.  I have attended A.A. and Alanon meetings
Well, on that we agree.  I have heard some rather astonishing statements from 
psychiatrists, as well, so clearly competence and state of the art knowledge 
are not required to maintain a license.
JK> I am basing what I say on several books and research papers that I have
JK> around here.  I am saying it as a chemical dependency counselor, fully
Then you need to post more references than you have, and from other sources, 
since the ones you have posted are not convincing.
Jerry Schwartz
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