*** Answering a msg seen in area CARBON.COPY (CARBON.COPY).

Hi, Michiel!

12 Dec 02 10:59, Michiel van der Vlist said to Alex Shakhaylo:

 AS>> of protocols which use ip as transport (gopher
 AS>> /http/ftp/ICQ/IRC/news/forums/chats etc) and I see fidonet also
 AS>> benefits from this transport.

 MV> Yes and so Binkp is just another protocol that is put on top of the
 MV> TCP/IP structure of the InterNet.

I see it under the different angle. BinkP also is put on top of the
TCP/IP protocol as well as InterNet. TCP/IP is not a structure, it
is just a transport protocol for global networks of ANY kind.

 MV> When adding something one always has to ask "what is the added
value".
 MV> So I ask you, what does Binkp offer that is not already offered to the
 MV> InterNet user by http/ftp/ICQ/ etc?

BinkP  offers nothing to the InterNet users, it offers some convinience to
the FidoNet users. I regard the FidoNet as a community and not as a set of
the protocols.

 MV> Because that is what you are talking about aren't you? You want to
 MV> attract new users and the only place they can be found is the
 MV> InterNet.  What has FidoNet to offer to /them/?

In general it offers more easy way to participate.

 AS>> I see here a common trend. I mean people need more than only
 AS>> transport, they also need to be organised by some social mean.

 MV> What is the social structure of FidoNet?

It is too complex concept to be described in two words.

 MV> Do you really think it will
 MV> stay upright if we radiacally change technology? I doubt it.

No need to change all the technology, just to widen low transport layer.
Yes, I think that such a widening can serve as an upright.

 MV> Let's
 MV> face it, the only thing the members of FidoNet have in common is that
 MV> they play with mailers.

Sorry, I disagree. I have forgotten when I played with my mailer last time,
I even have forgotten when I saw log file of my mailer last time. I'm happy
it works without a need for my attention to be drawn to it.

 MV> The moment they don;t need mailers anymore to
 MV> communicate the social structure will collapse like a sand castle in
 MV> the waves.

ip mailers are mailers too. And you also need router, tosser and editor
in any case.

 AS>> This makes me think fidonet has its future, but to achieve it
 AS>> fidonet should be changed in a way, at least it should be open
 AS>> to the new transport which is far better than modem2modem
 AS>> technology.

 MV> Fidonet was a success because it got so much out of that modem to
 MV> modem technology. A technology that was the only one available at the
 MV> time.

Yes, but now time has changed, you see. I guess it is not very hard
to predict what will happen to the fidonet in z2 looking at z1. In the
West part it will happen a little sooner, in the East one a little later.
Only China can help  :-)

 MV> But when alternatives are readily available to everyone, why would
 MV> anyone need FidoNet anymore? What is the added value?

So you still don't know ?

Fidonet is RPG in its core and people are players :-)

Well, It was half-joke (still the one which has some truth in it).
I don't know what makes people to join different p2p networks. It
may be an interest to learn something new, friend's advice, ambitions,
interest to talk, interest to get info, interest to share ideas.

 MV> The social aspect? Oh, come on. How long do you think FidoNet would
 MV> last if the nodelist was converted into an InterNet mailing list?

What do you mean ?

 MV> If I have a permanent connection to the InterNet and so I do not have
 MV> to worry about cost of on-line time, why do I need FidoNet anymore.
 MV> The strenght of FTN is that it is so economical with on-line time.

I have completely priceless internet for my needs. But I still have an
interest in fidonet. Ask me why and I'll be in trouble to answer. It's
a many-years habit I cannot put it up in easy way. Beside of that the
half of my points are now ip. I don't know what makes them to be points
having internet.

 MV> Have you never wondered why pointing never became popular in Z1? Let
 MV> me tell you; it is because local calls aren't metered in most cases.
 MV> There is no pressure on the users to become a point to save money!

I never thought of this as of a money matter. I can easily afford me
a nodenumber. And my points are points not because of saving, but because
they don't want to observe ZMH.

 MV> So what is the added value of using FTN when I have a permanent
 MV> connection to the InterNet? Why should I put up with pig headed sysops
 MV> of FidoNet distribution systems to send netmail to the other side op
 MV> the world when I have free e-mail?

Netmail has lost its importance long ago. The echoareas are the main
interest of sysops nowadays.

 MV> Why should I put up with all the
 MV> nonsense of P4, moderators, coordinators and the like that were
 MV> primarily put there to save cost when cost no longer is an issue?

I don't know. I even don't want to know, it is none of my business :-)

 AS>> So here is my main idea. We can save fidonet as a community
 AS>> only in case we will benefit from the modern technical
 AS>> possibilities.

 MV> I don't think so. The FidoNet community as you see it, has no
 MV> viability of it's own. FidoNet IS the technology. You can't separate
 MV> the two.

FTN is technology, but Fidonet is community.

 AS>> If we delay and keep for old-fashion technology, nothing will
 AS>> save this community, it will die step by step because new people
 AS>> don't join.

 MV> New people won't join, period.

They are joining now (at least here). And if there wasn't superstitions
about pvt and 'utility for the net' we would have more joining.

 MV> There is still a place for horses in this world. There is a place for
 MV> FidoNet too. But just like with the horse, the answer is not fitting
 MV> the horse with wheels and get people to abandon their cars.

No need to abandon, these things can be combined. I spend a lot of
time in the internet looking for an information, but every day I
start my golded to read new echomail.

Bye, Sinc, Alex

--- GoldED/W32 3.0.1