SHEILA KING spoke of SPELLING BY ROUTMAN to DAN TRIPLETT on 10-20-96
SK>-> I agree with you that Both writing in context and word lists are
SK>-> important.  I just wouldn't do the weekly test thing.  IMO it is a
SK>-> waste of time...
SK>My children's teachers (grades 3 and 5...but also over the last two
SK>years as well, so really grades 1, 2, 3 for a second child, and 4 as
SK>well) have given spelling lists. These lists did not come from a
SK>spelling book. 
I'd say this sound pretty good.  And for some children, spelling lists 
do work well, especially if the parents work with the students at home.  
I think I too would have a spelling list but my definition is a bit 
different.  It would be more like a spelling bank where frequently 
misspelled words for the student would be placed in the bank (like file 
cards or a small note book).  The word bank would be an handy reference 
when that student came across one of their difficult words.
SK>One year the teacher seemed to come up with her lists from the
SK>literature the class was studying at the time or words that students
SK>were misspelling in their writing assignments.
I like this idea....
SK>My son's fifth grade teacher gives the class five words each week,
SK>and each student adds to that five his or her own personal five
SK>words, which most likely come from their own interests (you should
SK>see the words my son is picking like "entomology" or
SK>"volcanology"...get the impression he's interested in science???) or
SK>else they are words that the student has misspelled in his writing
SK>over the last week or so.
I like the individual ownership that this idea affords each student.  
While I don't like the idea of weekly tests, with a lot of good 
instruction and spelling work in between I could learn to live with 
them.
SK>I am GLAD the teachers are doing this. My kids bring their lists home
SK>and we practice and study the words. I drill them on the lists
SK>orally, give them a practice quiz, and the words they get wrong they
SK>have to write out several times each for me. How can you say this is
SK>a waste of time? 
The activity you describe is a home activity.  This is not a waste of 
time for several reasons.  For one, some children do preform well with 
spelling lists and are supported with their studying at home.  But, you 
can probably imagine how few parents actually take the time to work with 
their children at home on these lists.  
Another good reason for this home activity is that it gets the child and 
the parents doing something productive together.  Time spent with your 
children is not a waste of time, it is an investment.  I would guess 
that you invest yourself in other important way in the lives of your 
children too.  What I was referring to as a "waste of time" is the 
practice of providing a list on Monday and then giving a pretest.  Some 
stuff in between (usually minimal) and then the post test on Friday.  
For some teachers, this is the essence of their spelling program.  Alone 
this is a waste of time.  For me, it's the stuff in between that counts.  
Kids don't learn from the pretest and they don't learn from the post-
test.  It's the stuff in the middle that's important.  I think the job 
can be done within the context of each child's writing.  
Perhaps I could describe a program in more detail and then it would be 
easier to understand.  I think the program I would describe would 
probably contain many instructional strategies that you would favor.  
SK>To say that it is a waste of time to practice
SK>such, makes me wonder what you think in general of memorizing facts
SK>and studying. Surely you don't think such stuff is a waste of time.
Not generally....But facts can be learned within the context of any 
activity.  I am teaching spider facts to my kindergartners.  First we 
brain stormed what we do already know about spiders.  We made a list.  
Now we are at the business of discovering new facts.
When I teach chess to my kids (my after school chess club of 1st-8th 
graders) I have them just play.  I pare the beginners together and I 
watch to see what they know.  I also pare the beginners with an 
experienced player and have the experienced player help the beginner.  
Then when I give whole group lessons, I have the beginner/experienced 
player together and I teach (isolated facts) about chess.  It's quick 
and painless.  However *most* of what they will learn about chess will 
be taught while they play (in context).  My lessons are mini-lessons and 
focus on a specific concept.  Each concept builds on the next.
Your field is math.  I have asked at our school why kids don't learn 
their basic math facts (8x8= etc...).  I was told that many are not able 
to grasp it.  They begin teaching it in 3rd grade.  I asked the 3rd 
grade teachers if their kids were getting it.  The answer was that most 
could not get all the facts memorized and those that did memorize most 
of them lost it over the summer.  Even as they were entering 5th grade 
many had not mastered their facts.  I always loved math as a kid and I 
mastered my basic math facts very early (3rd grade??).  I was a sort of 
a whiz kid in elementary.  Advanced algebra took the wind out of my 
sails and trigonometry sunk my ship.
What am I saying here?  Well, I'm not sure that the learning of facts of 
any kind actually can translate into real thinking skills.  But I don't 
deny that the possession of certain facts may provide the foundation to 
further learning.
SK>I think that my children are learning spelling both through the
SK>methods that you advocate, plus additional emphasis on it through the
SK>spelling lists and tests (and time spent studying for them). It
SK>certainly sends them the message that spelling is important, and this
SK>is the message I hope they take with them from the whole process.
Sounds like this teacher is doing the stuff in between as well.  I 
talked to a parent (she also teaches second grade at our school) and she 
is thinking of using a similar approach.  She spoke of using a pre-post- 
test approach as well.  She also said that her son is in a more 
traditional classroom and he is not doing well with this method.  She 
works with him and they do the drill thing at home but he still 
struggles.  I wonder if some people just don't have a better aptitude 
toward spelling and others (like me) are doomed to have a spell check 
handy at all times.
Tim wil tel.
dan
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