Hola Steven  :)

Monday December 09 2002 19:02, Steven Horn dec¡a a Felipe T. Dorado:

 FTD>> Ok, I'll get that doc and follow your suggestion.

 SH> Be warned that Michiel van der Vlis says that FTS-5000 has been modernized
 SH> but I have not seen the text.

I am warned, will get it when I have time, that elusive resource ;)

 FTD>> But from my common, down to earth, understanding of the
 FTD>> wording of
 FTD>> that first definition, a private node does not have a number to
 FTD>> dial to. And as for the second, English seems to have been twisted
 FTD>> to such a degree that "Hold" is supposed to mean that mail for
 FTD>> that system is "held" by his uplink. :!   Whichever
way I look at
 FTD>> it there's always someone in between. So, no direct contact
 FTD>> between nodes.

 SH> But I contact with my echomail feed directly, with Z1C directly and with
 SH> R16C directly.  However, I don't do it by telephone.

Ok, this "directly" has to be clarified. It seems to create
problems of communication.
Since I do not know enough about certain areas of IP technology I distrust
SysAdmins not belonging to Fido managing Fido packets. IP traffic goes
through those providers and they do not appear on the nodelist. I may not
get the full picture of how traffic goes through them but I hear it is easy
to "tap" it. Much easier than packets going through a telephone
exchange.

 FTD>> A Spanish dish which can be made of vegetable leftovers of
 FTD>> various
 FTD>> other dishes all "cemented"/blended/disguised together with
 FTD>> mayonaise.  It is an expression used to define a way of putting
 FTD>> together a group of thigs of completely different nature, the
 FTD>> result being a caotic mixture.

 SH> Why "chaotic"?  It blends a number of different things
together but it is
 SH> good to eat so it can be said to "work".

 FTD>> The "ensalada rusa" is quite good to eat though :)

 SH> Which confirms my view that it is an attractive dish.

And it is. But read the above again and you will find two things: the dish
and the expression. The former good the latter bad.

 FTD>> Yes.
 FTD>> So what?

 SH> In other words, it made it possible for you to communicate with North
 SH> American nodes without cost.

That was possible before that, including South American ones as well. So,
no argument there.

 FTD>> If this network can comprise snailmail, disquette-mail,
 FTD>> voicemail,
 FTD>> faxmail, modem-mail, netmail, echomail, and even IP-email and also
 FTD>> telepathic-mail, plus any other types of mail still to come, it is
 FTD>> my preposterous belief that those things should be clearly stated
 FTD>> in Policy. And in a way that any layman in communications can

 SH> We can forget snailmail, "sneaker net" or diskette mail,
voice mail, fax
 SH> mail and modem mail.  You can also forget IP-email because IONs produce
 SH> Fidonet packets just as you do.  You just deliver them over your POTS line
 SH> while we do it over the Internet.  Should the existence of IONs be dealt
 SH> with in policy?  Arguably it should but Policy has not been amended since
 SH> it was adopted in 1989 and is unlikely to be amended now.

Thinking that it will not change will make it so.
Most nodes I know think the same as you do and that is precisely the reason
why they do not move a finger to support a change.

 SH> Why do you think the workarounds exist?

Patches over patches ...

 FTD>> understand. And that whatever nodelist is distributed can
 FTD>> accomodate all nodes of the network without having to resort to
 FTD>> various lists and dig out dubious technical sentences from
 FTD>> technical docs. Other than that this network is not global and
 FTD>> cannot be called one network.

 SH> The nodelist I have is similar to the one you have and does not need to be
 SH> split up to acommodate IP-only nodes.  It is also global, in some ways
 SH> more global than it was when I got my first node number in 1991.

Can I dial your node?  Can you dial mine?  Never mind cost.  We can't and
therefore that list is not global. That is what I called an "ensalada
rusa", the expression.

 FTD>> Lucky you. I bought my first modem (a suprafax) in that year
 FTD>> to
 FTD>> connect to a thing called "internet" through long
distance calls
 FTD>> ...  Found Fido and stuck to this idea as first choice while using
 FTD>> Inet at the same time. And I know of many people who don't even
 FTD>> now what a network is yet. However, when one explains to them what
 FTD>> it is, how it works and the difference between Fidonet and this
 FTD>> internet we now call "The Internet", they all find the idea of
 FTD>> Fidonet great and loathe something like an internet for various
 FTD>> reasons.

 SH> All I can tell you is that when the Internet reached Whitehorse in early
 SH> 1995, I lost 7 of the 10 nodes I had in Net3409 within 6 months.  Alaska
 SH> lost its 40-odd nodes by 1998 and there is no one left there.

I do not get the point. You say that as a positive or as a negative thing?
The same happenned here. I see it as a bad thing for this network. We move
to where the users are?  It is a bit like prostituting this network.

For the other network, we already have it. But I use this one more and to
more satisfaction than the other. More alternatives would help.
I like slow things, offline, round the corner little shops and systems we
have more control over rather than the opposite of all those.

 FTD>> You may see them exagerated and, probably you mean misled :? I
 FTD>> first heard about that network back in the 80's. It seemed great.
 FTD>> But it is taking just too long to come to the common people of the
 FTD>> planet. And the way it is being used and abused ...  It'll be
 FTD>> great when this internet, or any other, functions more like Fido.
 FTD>> But that will still take years and most probably decades.

 SH> It may be taking too long to come to some people in Europe but well over
 SH> 50% of the households in Canada have an Internet connection.

You see, we do not happen to have those means around the planet ...
And no-one is telling you to forget your priviledged connections, which I
also have ...

 SH> And while Fido is an interesting messaging protocol, it is less
 SH> than useful for research or file transfers.

I like messaging, I like it and Fido provides it. For research and other
things I use other network. We are talking about Fido as it is.
If making Fido useful for, say, videoconf and online database access is
going to leave out offline messaging, then I prefer to use another network
and leave this one for what it was created.
If those changes add to Fido without altering its values as a mail network
then I'm all for the changes.  That's something quite a few people seem to
not understand. I probably fail to explain myself properly.

 FTD>> No, it hasn't nor do they try to.  Just the opposite. It is
 FTD>> taking so long to make a global network secure enough to be
 FTD>> used with confidence ...  

 SH> Security is relative but what is your problem with confidence?  Have you
 SH> ever thought about how insecure Fido is?

I have though about it I _know_. But whoever wants to access my messages or
my BBS has to use Fido technology.  IP has made my messages available to
people who do not use nor need to use Fido. I do not like that because it
does not add anything to Fido but rather substracts from it.

 FTD>> So what?  I'm an end user who expresses his views from his
 FTD>> level of knowledge without any reserves as to being corrected.
 FTD>> Please do, with arguments.

 SH> While I respect the view of end users more than most, I also expect them
 SH> to be honest and not pass off their comments as general truths.

Ha!    Do I really need to place a note at the beginning of all my messages
stating that what I say is my personal point of view?
Please, do not presuppose I am not honest, will you?
And I assure you I do not pretend to "pass off" anything as anything.
You seem adult enough to judge things. You read, you write, therefore you
think. Please do.

 FTD>> Right. They aren't. And Inet is even less so. I fear
 FTD>> mentioning certain key words in my posts ...

 SH> You do have a problem, possibly of your own making.

Yeap. I created internet so I have a problem. H !

 SH> The volume of Internet traffic gives you a degree of protection
 SH> that Fidonet could never deliver.

Not a sound argument. Techonology makes it possible to keep a record of all
my IP messages. Is it possible? Yes. Then I distrust that technology. Full
stop.
It is not the actual thing it is a matter of principle.

 SH> You can even encrypt your Internet communications which Fidonet
 SH> still bans.

Does it?  I can encrypt packages to my uplink and he decrypts them so that
in the far chance of a telephone operator tapping them (argument actually
used) he cannot read my downlinks mail. What policy do you say I would be
infringing?

 FTD>> Cheap?  You mean in the places where it is available and in
 FTD>> the places where it is considered cheap ... :?   That is not
 FTD>> the whole planet!

 SH> Perhaps not but should I live with the quality of a POTS connection in
 SH> Africa because it is the worst and most expensive one available?

In Africa?  In Africa, in Per£, in Kamchatka, La Pampa, in Punjab is inet
cheaper and better?
You do not really mean that do you?


 FTD>> And we are talking about a network which claims to be global.
 FTD>> Where is the globality?

 SH> It's being worked on.

Ah, so it is not. It is only claimed.

 FTD>> ?DSL in the Magreb is cheap?  Will superdeveloped countries
 FTD>> install large servers for free and donate tens of thousands PVI
 FTD>> boxes in the countries that have one washing machine per 100
 FTD>> people so they can communicate with each other and the world?

 SH> The developed world may and there are now Internet service providers in
 SH> places like Burkina Faso which were not there 5 years ago.  And if their
 SH> problems seem massive (and they are), remember that their telephone
 SH> infrastructure was also abysmal.

Was ...
Steven, being frank:   _people do not have as much money as you do_.


 FTD>> Throwing POTS to the rubbish is closing the door to Fido to
 FTD>> many many people.

 SH> Fido closed its own doors in the underdeveloped world because
 SH> telephone lines in the Maghreb could not carry Fidonet POTS
 SH> connections either.

Have you tried them?  I haven't so I don't dare advancing that it is done.
You declare it impossible.
Pots is the cheapest way for offline messaging so far since it only
requires those machines we can find in rubbish bins for
"obsolete" nowadays in our countries (literally: I have a couple
of them right here on the table next to me).

 FTD>> Nor do I see any concern in your comments for people who can
 FTD>> only afford a modest obsolete 486 and a phone line ...

 SH> I ran that modest 486 and a phone line and had a good connection to the
 SH> Internet and used that connection for Fidonet as well.

Fido is more accesible with practically no money.
Inet is dear, meaning expensive.
If one has already Inet, Fido may be free of additional charges. But when
one can not even afford Fido, a computer or a phone line, then Inet is
simply science-fiction.

 SH> I also note that when my system was POTS capable, no one ever
 SH> called my system because I was too far away and calls were too
 SH> expensive.

Some of my users are so near we can have a beer or two at the weekend.
No, we only see snow some decades ...  The planet is varied, fortunately.

 FTD>> It is not the sane that need a doctor ...

 SH> The sane may not need a psychiatrist.  They may, however, not be in good
 SH> health.

That's not health.

 FTD>> If any objection to new technologies is taken as a negative to
 FTD>> use
 FTD>> them instead of as a way to improve them, then it is better to
 FTD>> "apaga y v monos" (switch off and go home).

 SH> I distinguish between "questioning" and
"objecting".  I can (and do)
 SH> question the new technologies but I see simply objecting to them as
 SH> opposing them.

Ok, I used a word incorrectly. Please forgive this non native speaker and learner.
I question new technologies because they are not thoughfully tried before
selling them as sound.  Will not mention medicines, nuclear or
biotechnology ...

 FTD>> I don't think so, wide open in fact.
 FTD>> You might consider feasible the idea that it could be you who is
 FTD>> not looking at the whole picture of a world with global
 FTD>> communications. Overdeveloped countries have a strong tendency to
 FTD>> think that the rest of countries are not as developed as they are
 FTD>> simply because they don't want to ...

 SH> Some nations have real problems and one can move to help them.

That sounds like a politician press statement: says nothing.

 SH> But they can also do a fair bit for themselves like remove
 SH> dictators such as El Caudillo..

Ha!    You know the guy. Good for you. I hope your society informed you of
some other things as well.  Mine did. And about seals, oil,
"fletan", Inuit and other.
No, I won't go for that bait. No politics with me. I don't know what that
has to do with the topic at hand.


 FTD>> We all work to make this network greater, don't we?  Let's not
 FTD>> get bogged down at who has the largest car, shall we?
 FTD>> All cars move and even bicycles do ...

 SH> But we're not talking about vehicles but about communications.

I should have made that more explicit. The simil was lost.

 SH> And Apples and IBMs and their clones and other machines can talk
 SH> to each other over a network either by a direct connection to
 SH> the network or by a POTS connection.  But that network is not
 SH> Fidonet

Fine, let's all leave Fidonet ...


 SH> and all Fidonet wants to do is turn us into second-class
 SH> citizens.

"You sure want to format all your hds including remotes?   Please confirm.
This is not M$ apperitive system, please confirm by retyping the whole
sentence."

};D

Sixth class citizens would like to please be authorised to have the remote
chance of being allowed to try to be promoted to fifth.

 SH> So much for your global vision.

Geeeee!

Either you do not know what Fido is or I don't.
Until a couple of your statements are clarified I think I'll abstain from
further dialogue, Steven.

Felipe  :)

--- Fastecho 1.45/GED/Fd 2.12